# Iran: More sanctions now or wait? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300 "2013-11-19T22:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/801 "2013-12-27T14:14:28Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You claim that your country is better informed, and yet you say you’re getting your information on this topic from the same sources that Americans are. It seems that transitive properties are not well understood in your country: if a = b, and b = c, then a = c. _“information on this topic”_? What topic is that? if a = b, but b does not = c, then a does not = c. Or to put it another way, adding oranges won’t tell you how many pears you have. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/802 "2013-12-27T14:17:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They have more to lose if no deal is struck. Do you disagree? If no deal is struck then Iran will continue with its nuclear endeavors. It’s a win-win situation for Iran. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/803 "2013-12-27T14:21:43Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > If no deal is struck then Iran will continue with its nuclear endeavors. It’s a win-win situation for Iran. So, “nuclear endeavors” are more important to Iran than pulling its economy out of the dumper? If no deal is struck, they’ll be slapped with even more sanctions so fast it’ll make your head spin. And I assume it spins counterclockwise, being down under and all. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/804 "2013-12-27T14:22:58Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > _“information on this topic”_? What topic is that? if a = b, but b does not = c, then a does not = c. Or to put it another way, adding oranges won’t tell you how many pears you have. This topic: > [@Ravenman](#): > > Which country is this, and how is it that the public of your country knows what your intelligence services are doing? > [@Riga Marole](#): > > How is it that the public of my country knows what our intelligence services are doing? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/805 "2013-12-27T14:37:21Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Since Iran isn’t going to cease its nuclear endeavours, then harping that it should do so doesn’t seem like much of an interesting debate. > [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > If no deal is struck then Iran will continue with its nuclear endeavors. It’s a win-win situation for Iran. Oh, I didn’t notice the first post. So, your contention is that Iran will continue it’s “nuclear endeavors” either way, then the only difference between striking a deal or not is whether the sanctions stay in place (and get tighter) or whether they get removed. You’re contention, then, is it’s a win-win for Iran regardless of the existence of economic sanctions. That sure makes sense! ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/806 "2013-12-27T14:52:28Z")
\*A > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So, Riga, can _any_ of the current circumstances be blamed on the Iranians? Are they even 10% responsible? 5%? \*B > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I tend to blame American’s sometime extreme ignorance on foreign policy and matters of military action around the world to be more related to an absolute lack of any sense of the need for personal responsibility to become informed fully with a curious framing of the details and facts that would be available to them with just a little effort on their part to get it. \*C > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The US government did not create an impression and instill it in my mind that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Saddam Hussein were belligerent toward the West and toward Israel. The US government could not convince me that after 2002 Saddam Hussen continued to be belligerent after he allowed the UN inspectors back in and was cooperating ever so proactively prior to the US invasion. And likewise at the present moment the US government at least the Adminisrration did not convince me that Rouhani is not really a moderate and does not want to complete a peaceful deal. The Obama Admin is arguing the opposite of what you are claiming. > > I recognize moderation and cooperation as I see it. And Saw it in 2003 and I see it right now. I was not fooled by Dubya and it is my contention that Obama is not trying to fool any of us now. That effort begins at the American Enterprise Institute and flows into the public mind through Fix News and the conservative radio talk network. \*D > [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > All in all, the U.S. is not an educated population, derived by the fact that there reside an enormous number of illiterate and semi-illiterate citizens. I recently got an e-post (from an American acquaintance) that is so full of misspelled words and rotten grammar that it’s impossible to understand how English can be considered the _lingua franca_ of the United States. The point is, with such a population that can hardly read - and have little or no interest in education - would it not be reasonable to say that these people won’t be cross-checking official government statements or seeking out information other than asking their neighbour what time the 7-11 is open? These things are the fault of the government … **not** the fault of the population. The ignorance I was referring to was not ignorance based upon lack of education or literacy levels of the population. I’d like to make that point clear. I have observed many highly educated and very intelligent people express ignorant ideas and viewpoints quite often. I do not believe for one second that smart folks being lazy or stupid on a matter of foreign policy is a symptom that is found only in Americans. We have the Evangelical Christian political right who are genuinely literate and educated Americans but who show ignorance on political matters in practical terms - most of the time. That may be unique to the USA but that religious/political ignorance is accentuated primarily because the US is the proud owner of the most advanced and powerful military that the world has ever seen. To back up my view on political/military/religious ignorance, I often point to the “Land Letter” which was a letter sent to George W. Bush by five evangelical Christian leaders on October 3, 2002, outlining their support for a just war pre-emptive invasion of Iraq. That letter is shocking in the amount of raw ignorance it contained. One concept you need to become more aware of about Americans in general is that Americans assumed the role as top military dog in the world after the concept of the usefulness for empire had faded away. However in having the most powerful military at our disposal for defense and yes for offense there imposes a responsibility that all Americans feel to varying degrees to recognize belligerent and hostile nations that potentially could threaten the civil order of the world and disrupt the economic flow of the world’s resources. Hence we have ended up discussing what to do about Iran’s nuclear program and the sanctions that have already been set up to deal with it. The original post in this thread indeed asks the question: _“Congress is considering imposing additional sanctions on Iran. The Obama administration wants more time to negotiate. What to do?”_ So what to do? If you look at My Quote \*C above you will see that I speak to the recognition of belligerence and the recognition of when a belligerent nation turns to moderation and cooperation. Understanding that most Americans, I believe rightfully so, have recognized Iran just as they did Iraq, to be a belligerent and hostile nations over the course of the past thirty years or so. Where way too many Americans have gone wrong in my view is that much of the more informed and educated ones plus the religion-minded ones, are not predisposed to recognizing that a belligerent nation can attempt to modify and correct itself and try to become cooperative and more moderate. Americans did not recognize it with regard to Iraq and now I am troubled to see that Americans may not recognize Iran’s attempts by Rouhani to moderate their position on Nuclear enrichment and cooperation with the IAEA and the international community. That is why to me the actions of those 76 US Senators who are calling for tougher new sanctions in the light of Iran’s moves to moderation and to put an end to belligerence are contributing to the general public’s non-acceptance of peaceful resolution and diplomacy by knocking down Iran’s moves toward moderation as phony and just throwing the West a bone in order to stall for more time. That is inadvertently supportive of the neocon view the knocking out Iran’s nuclear production capability by military strikes is the only way to resolve this. Digging into the details and historical facts that you are pointing out Riga Marole (Such as Iran’s assistance in Afghanistan and hooking us up with the Northern Alliance) is important to the discussion to me. So keep it up and perhaps we all can actually learn a bit or two from one another and help the peaceful resolution to this conflict be the one that prevails. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/807 "2013-12-27T14:52:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, “nuclear endeavors” are more important to Iran than pulling its economy out of the dumper? If no deal is struck, they’ll be slapped with even more sanctions so fast it’ll make your head spin. And I assume it spins counterclockwise, being down under and all. Iran’s “nuclear endeavors” are important to securing peace and a less hostile environment in the face of American threats. The U.S. has been trying its damnedest to get a clear gun-shot at Iran’s oil industry and Iran has only a knife with which to defend itself. Now, if Iran could get its hands on a gun then the U.S. will be stale-mated. Now that Iran has the makings of a bomb, it has managed (finally!) to put itself into a win-win situation. I know you like Israel so let’s use their own situation to clarify Iran for you. Israel says to the Palestinians and to the Arab world in general, “We are going to steal your land, build a fence, and to send you to hell … unless you cry uncle, declare your acknowledgement of the state of Israel and cease all hostile operations towards us.” In other words, Israel doesn’t really care what the Arabs do because Israel wins in either case. Iran is far less demanding saying, “We are going to build a bomb unless you cease all hostile operations towards us.” So Iran wins if they secure real peace, but if they don’t get peace they will win by building their bomb and making agression towards them unprofitable … which is peace by default. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/808 "2013-12-27T15:00:26Z")
Yes, the irony is that **Riga Marole** seems unconcerned about the economic chaos in Iran, whereas it is clear the Khameini is very concerned about it; and Rouhani is even more alarmed. His “win/win” comments seem more in line with what the Qods Force leadership probably believes: “Who cares if the unemployment rate is 25% and the government can’t pay its bills? We might get the Bomb soon! Huzzah!” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/809 "2013-12-27T15:02:54Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > The U.S. has been trying its damnedest to get a clear gun-shot at Iran’s oil industry… I’m going to snip this because it seems to be the lynchpin of your argument. And I’m going to ask what you mean by this, and how you have come to this conclusion-- that serious people actually in power in the US have this as their policy. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/810 "2013-12-27T15:14:17Z")
Securing a deal by diplomatic or by barter cum diplomacy, is lasting. Sanctions are temporary and the longer you live with them the easier they are to endure. Look at Cuba. All it has is bananas and tobacco and it’s isolated. Iran has oil and a growing number of friends within reach. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/811 "2013-12-27T15:15:03Z")
And, once again, it must be that France and Germany are also “trying their damnedest to get a clear gun-shot at Iran’s oil industry,” since they are full partners with the United States on these negotiations. Who knew that Francois Hollande was such a disciple of Bush and Cheney? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/812 "2013-12-27T15:17:52Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Securing a deal by diplomatic or by barter cum diplomacy, is lasting. Sanctions are temporary and the longer you live with them the easier they are to endure. Look at Cuba. All it has is bananas and tobacco and it’s isolated. Iran has oil and a growing number of friends within reach. I think you need to read the newspaper more carefully. Cuba has one country with an embargo on it; Iran’s economy is crashing because only a small number of countries are willing to buy its oil today. Do you even know that the EU has very stringent sanctions on Iran right now? ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/813 "2013-12-27T15:36:10Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And, once again, it must be that France and Germany are also “trying their damnedest to get a clear gun-shot at Iran’s oil industry,” since they are full partners with the United States on these negotiations. Who knew that Francois Hollande was such a disciple of Bush and Cheney? High-lighting footnotes and absurd conclusions don’t interest me all that much and aren’t detrimental to the case in hand anyway. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/814 "2013-12-27T15:41:25Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Securing a deal by diplomatic or by barter cum diplomacy, is lasting. Sanctions are temporary and the longer you live with them the easier they are to endure. Look at Cuba. Well, besides that key fact that **Ravenman** already pointed out, let’s look at Cuba. Are you saying Iran aspires to having an economy like that? > [@](#): > > Iran has oil and a growing number of friends within reach. Like who? ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/815 "2013-12-27T15:44:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m going to snip this because it seems to be the lynchpin of your argument. And I’m going to ask what you mean by this, and how you have come to this conclusion … Operation TP Ajax was all about that, and the U.S. has been waddling and quacking through Middle-East oil fields ever since. With all of that waddling and quacking I say it’s a duck with a propensity for black gold. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > … that serious people actually in power in the US have this as their policy. Oh Lord! :smack: I don’t believe you asked me that! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/816 "2013-12-27T15:50:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > … “Who cares if the unemployment rate is 25% and the government can’t pay its bills? We might get the Bomb soon! Huzzah!” Are you quoting the U.S. in the early to mid 1940’s? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/817 "2013-12-27T15:50:44Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Operation TP Ajax was all about that, and the U.S. has been waddling and quacking through Middle-East oil fields ever since. With all of that waddling and quacking I say it’s a duck with a propensity for black gold. > > Oh Lord! :smack: I don’t believe you asked me that! 😛 Got anything more recent than events from _60 years ago_? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/818 "2013-12-27T15:54:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Got anything more recent than events from _60 years ago_? Events which centered around [**British**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Persian_Oil_Company) control of the Iranian oil industry. > [@Riga Marole](#): > > Oh Lord! :smack: I don’t believe you asked me that! 😛 Are you prepared to support any of your claims with, y’know, content? Information? Cites? Answers? Anything? ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/819 "2013-12-27T15:59:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Got anything more recent than events from _60 years ago_? > [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > … ever since You missed that part, huh. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/820 "2013-12-27T16:02:52Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > You missed that part, huh. No. I didn’t miss it. You said: > [@](#): > > The U.S. has been trying its damnedest to get a clear gun-shot at Iran’s oil industry… If it’s your contention that that is our policy now, I’d like to see a cite. Not really interested in a trip down memory lane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=42)