# Iran: More sanctions now or wait? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300 "2013-11-19T22:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/841 "2013-12-27T21:20:34Z")
Meanwhile back to the topic - Top foreign adviser to Iran’s supreme leader signals endorsement for Rouhani and a bit of a blow to hardliners. [http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=21345335&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedailybeast.com%2Fcheat-sheets%2F2013%2F12%2F27%2Fcheat-sheet.html](http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=21345335&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedailybeast.com%2Fcheat-sheets%2F2013%2F12%2F27%2Fcheat-sheet.html) > [@](#): > > Iranian Official Calls for Direct Talks With US > By BY NASSER KARIMI Associated Press Dec 27, 2013, 4:08 AM > The top foreign adviser to Iran’s supreme leader on Friday called for separate talks directly with the United States amid the multilateral negotiations over Iran’s nuclear program. > > The remarks Friday by Ali Akbar Velayati signaled a high-level endorsement of the policies of President Hassan Rouhani, who has been been sharply criticized by hardliners over the landmark nuclear deal that Iran reached with world powers last month and over other contacts with the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/842 "2013-12-27T21:59:46Z")
I’ve no idea why I was quoted in post #806, but the question I asked is still pending. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/843 "2013-12-27T23:19:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’ve no idea why I was quoted in post #806, but the question I asked is still pending. I would like to see the question answered also. It goes along with my messages. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/844 "2013-12-28T06:42:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > It’s pretty common here for localities to pay for billion dollar new sports stadiums by leveling higher and higher taxes on things like hotel rooms, car rentals, and other services that only non-locals really use. I can only assume that the Scandinavian equivalent of the [Dallas Cowboys’](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT&T_Stadium) taxpayer-subsidized stadium is free gall bladder and sex reassignment surgeries for Swedes. > > So, **Riga** , next time you get major surgery, thank an American! Funny you mentioning sport. Sweden is out of its mind with this women’s equality (you have no idea) going to ridiculous lengths to out-prove a point. There’s even been scandals about how public urinals are discriminatory against women and should therefore be removed! Anyway, there’s a minor football stadium just a stones-throw from my place and a few years ago they announced that it would be completely redone and become a World Woman’s Sport Village where only women would compete. So they put up some preliminary buildings and lots of signs on the upcoming Women Only Sport Village. Fast forward several years to today, my wife and I were saying that we haven’t seen much work done there since the initial huba-huba. It stood in the newspaper yesterday that the plan fell through. I wonder how many millions was already spent on preliminaries and such? Ps. The thanking Americans for major surgery and gall bladder went over my head. I don’t get it. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/845 "2013-12-28T06:45:06Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I would like to see the question answered also. It goes along with my messages. What question was that? I don’t have the honour of seeing BE’s posts. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/846 "2013-12-28T06:58:14Z")
Censorship\* of a viewpoint not favourable to the government of Iran… go figure. \*in the informal sense ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/847 "2013-12-28T15:16:58Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > What question was that? I don’t have the honour of seeing BE’s posts. Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers So, Riga, can any of the current circumstances be blamed on the Iranians? Are they even 10% responsible? 5%? ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/848 "2013-12-28T16:05:10Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers > So, Riga, can any of the current circumstances be blamed on the Iranians? Are they even 10% responsible? 5%? Silly question. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/849 "2013-12-28T16:17:13Z")
Why, not at all a silly question! Clearly, you have explicitly articulated a position of absolute innocence on the part of Iran! Perhaps not in so many words, words that might be quoted, but your position is obvious to any objective observer, an objectivity that can be measured by the degree with which it aligns with the foreign policy of such worthy nations as our own, Israel, and Saudi Arabia. Paragons of international virtue, each and every one! This is also clear to any objective observer, which is a neat alignment of proofs positive. So, the question is simple: are you going to continue to offer an absurd position which is directly contrary to the objective truth, or will you humbly admit your error and promise to do better? Well? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/850 "2013-12-28T16:26:06Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Silly question. Do you believe Iran has borh hardliners and moderates? Or are all Iranians on the same page in how to deal with the US and the EU? I’m trying to find out why you think BE’s question is silly in a respectful way of course. From Post 841 _"The remarks Friday by Ali Akbar Velayati signaled a high-level endorsement of the policies of President Hassan Rouhani, who has been been sharply criticized by hardliners over the landmark nuclear deal that Iran reached with world powers last month and over other contacts with the U.S._" ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/851 "2013-12-28T16:41:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Why, not at all a silly question! Clearly, you have explicitly articulated a position of absolute innocence on the part of Iran! Perhaps not in so many words, words that might be quoted, but your position is obvious to any objective observer, an objectivity that can be measured by the degree with which it aligns with the foreign policy of such worthy nations as our own, Israel, and Saudi Arabia. Paragons of international virtue, each and every one! This is also clear to any objective observer, which is a neat alignment of proofs positive. > > So, the question is simple: are you going to continue to offer an absurd position which is directly contrary to the objective truth, or will you humbly admit your error and promise to do better? > > Well? None of the points and counter-points that have been brought up by this discussion, on this forum (that I myself have had to pleasure of reading) have discouraged me in my conviction that Iran has acted with carefully designed diplomacy, and given the facts of history - both then and now (as I understand them) - I would have acted in the same manner and felt justified. That does not mean that every turn has been ideal, but given the background (all in all) I feel that Iran has played the cards its been dealt with great cunning, despite the fact that many of those hands that Iran was (and is being) dealt have been from the bottom of the pack. The idea of assigning percentages to this or that is, as I said, is silly. Isn’t that how the question was put to me? ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/852 "2013-12-28T16:43:57Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Do you believe Iran has borh hardliners and moderates? Absolutely. Yes, I do. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/853 "2013-12-28T16:51:57Z")
I gather Riga holds Iran utterly blameless for the current state of affairs. I suggest this be taken into consideration when arguing with him - it’s akin to arguing with someone over a matter of deep personal unyielding faith. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/854 "2013-12-28T16:58:43Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > None of the points and counter-points that have been brought up by this discussion, on this forum (that I myself have had to pleasure of reading) have discouraged me in my conviction that Iran has acted with carefully designed diplomacy, and given the facts of history - both then and now (as I understand them) - I would have acted in the same manner and felt justified. That does not mean that every turn has been ideal, but given the background (all in all) I feel that Iran has played the cards its been dealt with great cunning, despite the fact that many of those hands that Iran was (and is being) dealt have been from the bottom of the pack. > > The idea of assigning percentages to this or that is, as I said, is silly. Isn’t that how the question was put to me? Okay, if Iran has played their cards so well since 1979, are you implying that it was their plan to have most of their major trading partner impose significant sanctions on them? If you see some genius in walking into economic isolation that has made inflation triple over the last four years, and unemployment almost triple in the same time, I’m just not seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/855 "2013-12-28T17:01:04Z")
Given the murk that clouds any view of Iran from the outside, it does appear that the moderates have gained considerable, perhaps even dominant, approval from the Iranian electorate. This is an encouraging development, and we should foster and nurture that trend to whatever extent is open to us. Perhaps bluster, brow-beating and threats are not the best way to encourage such a movement. Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/856 "2013-12-28T17:13:38Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Okay, if Iran has played their cards so well since 1979, are you implying that it was their plan to have most of their major trading partner impose significant sanctions on them? Reading my reply gave you such an impression, did it? Where do you get such questions? Do you really expect for me to answer that? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/857 "2013-12-28T17:19:29Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Reading my reply gave you such an impression, did it? Where do you get such questions? From your assertion that Iran has been acting with carefully designed diplomacy. So apparently their diplomacy, such as it is, ranging from sponsoring terrorism, chanting “death to America”, and breaking their word on treaties, is carefully designed to bring them to the situation they are in now. > [@](#): > > Do you really expect for me to answer that? Not with any kind of sense or moral consistency, no. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/858 "2013-12-28T17:33:53Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Absolutely. Yes, I do. Do hardliners want a bomb and moderates want only peaceful use of nuclear energy. What draws the distinction between hardliners and moderates for you? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/859 "2013-12-28T17:40:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Given the murk that clouds any view of Iran from the outside, it does appear that the moderates have gained considerable, perhaps even dominant, approval from the Iranian electorate. This is an encouraging development, and we should foster and nurture that trend to whatever extent is open to us. > > Perhaps bluster, brow-beating and threats are not the best way to encourage such a movement. Just a thought. That is why defining any US Senator who calls for new and tougher sanctions despite Iran’s clear move to moderation last summer as acting in an extremist out of control, hostile to diplomacy behavior in my view. Why so many here have tried to slap that back is hard to figure. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/860 "2013-12-28T17:44:39Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What draws the distinction between hardliners and moderates for you? The same thing that distinguishes the degree of grey between black and white. It depends on how black and how white your extremes are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=44)