# Iran: More sanctions now or wait? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300 "2013-11-19T22:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/881 "2014-01-15T04:08:16Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Still missing the point. You throw out talk of impeachment, and there is none relating to the subject of this thread. Typical. The impeachment talk I heard today was because of the deal with Iran and I am pretty sure I mentioned that. I see you have no response to my previous post. Just a complaint about something unrelated to the thread. I’ll repeat it just in case you didn’t read my second paragraph: So unless you think Obama, and his Secretary of State(s) have screwed up foreign policy so badly that he (they) deserve to have lost public approval, I would expect you’d have some concern about the effectiveness of those dedicated to destroying his legacy as well as the Iran deal. Do you have concern or has Obama not been good (Approvable) on Foreign policy overall? Do you approve or disapprove of Obama’s handling of foreign policy and in particular his position on the Iran deal? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/882 "2014-01-15T04:22:58Z")
Post 873… from BrainGlutton posted a link to the New York Post… Go there, it is all quite positive news… but next to the Report that the Iranians agreed to limit enrichment to 5% and allow the IAEA come in to verify compliance… But next to the decent good news… is a link to the Prince of the enemy of peace and negotiation… repeating his quite disgusting opinions once against… Bolton and his ilk appear to be winning the argument on foreign policy if we use the polling of Obama’s approval rating as a scorecard. > [@](#): > > US time and resources are also being diverted from other, more-pressing international problems, not least of which are elsewhere in the Middle East. Iran’s nuclear-weapons program is not merely or even primarily Israel’s problem, it is America’s. Unfortunately, Obama’s administration is making the same mistake as its predecessors by trying (and failing) to negotiate Iran out of its nuclear ambitions. > > But even beyond that, Obama’s misjudgments and inattention are imperiling the entire region. Libya is dissolving partly because Obama lost interest once Khadafy was overthrown, leading to the Sept. 11, 2012, murders in Benghazi, which remain unavenged and unresolved 16 months later. S > yria is not only in chaos, but so too is Obama’s Syria policy, incoherent to the point of embarrassment for almost three years. > > There is turmoil across North Africa as Islamic extremists and militants threaten existing governments. South Sudan is collapsing in civil war and others seem destined to follow. And, again, there is al Qaeda’s resurgence in Iraq. > > More globally, of course, are the serious problems of Chinese territorial aggrandizement in Asia; Russian efforts to re-establish hegemony in Ukraine, the Caucasus and other former Soviet states, as well as North Korea’s threatening nuclear-weapons program. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/883 "2014-01-15T06:10:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > A good point… except that nobody appears to have called for Obama’s impeachment because of Iran. > > But don’t let that stop you from telling us how great Obama is! Er… Same problem: no one is actually doing that. Weird of you to commit the exact same fallacy you complain about someone else committing… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/884 "2014-01-15T06:23:54Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Er… Same problem: no one is actually doing that. Weird of you to commit the exact same fallacy you complain about someone else committing… er, he started a thread titled: Russia/US UNSC Deal Reached - what it it means for masterful US President and Sec of State legacy. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/885 "2014-01-15T13:17:15Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Er… Same problem: no one is actually doing that. Weird of you to commit the exact same fallacy you complain about someone else committing… I’m not sure you’re actually familiar with **NfbW** ’s posting history. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/886 "2014-01-15T13:43:42Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No I don’t think any Democrats are doing that. Why ask such an extraordinarily silly question? It’s not a silly question. Perhaps you should consider being more precise in your posts. You said: \*"Those favoring derailing it are on an all out blitz to drive Obama into deeper disapproval territory as an appeaser, blame America, Muslim sympathizer. " \* Immediately after I posted: “The real problem Obama has is the numerous Democrats in the Senate who really, really want to approve more sanctions now, although they wouldn’t trigger unless Iran defaults on the deal. The Republicans, of course, are lined up against him, and there isn’t much he can do about that. But he should be able to put a leash on the Senators in his own party. More schmoozing is in order.” Now, if you weren’t referring to those same Democrats, who were you referring to? We can’t read your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/887 "2014-01-15T14:14:53Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > … > > As to your request for a cite of some sort, I am citing the President’s judgment on this matter. I trust his judgment so my argument is little more than matching Obama’s argument. > > … This is the gist of every single one of your arguments ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/888 "2014-01-15T19:47:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s not a silly question. Perhaps you should consider being more precise in your posts. You said: \*"Those favoring derailing it are on an all out blitz to drive Obama into deeper disapproval territory as an appeaser, blame America, Muslim sympathizer. " \* Immediately after I posted: > > “The real problem Obama has is the numerous Democrats in the Senate who really, really want to approve more sanctions now, although they wouldn’t trigger unless Iran defaults on the deal. The Republicans, of course, are lined up against him, and there isn’t much he can do about that. But he should be able to put a leash on the Senators in his own party. More schmoozing is in order.” > > Now, if you weren’t referring to those same Democrats, who were you referring to? We can’t read your mind. I was referring to the likes of John Bolton and Republican Pundits and Politiicians that are motivated to derail a peace deal with Iran. The Dems are wrong to think their actions helps the diplomatic process - they are now being used by those who want diminish Obama as a leader on all foreign policy and derail the deal. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/889 "2014-01-15T19:56:08Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I was referring to the likes of John Bolton and Republican Pundits and Politiicians that are motivated to derail a peace deal with Iran. The Dems are wrong to think their actions helps the diplomatic process - they are now being used by those who want diminish Obama as a leader on all foreign policy and derail the deal. Is there really no room for honest disagreement over policy in your worldview? Must anyone who disagrees with Obama be either trying to destroy him for spite, or be the puppet of those who are? For goodness’ sake, people can reasonably disagree over what course to take with Iran’s nuclear program. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/890 "2014-01-15T19:57:54Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I was referring to the likes of John Bolton and Republican Pundits and Politiicians that are motivated to derail a peace deal with Iran. The Dems are wrong to think their actions helps the diplomatic process - they are now being used by those who want diminish Obama as a leader on all foreign policy and derail the deal. So, they’re not trying to undermine Obama, they’re just really, really stupid. Too stupid to realize that they are “being used” but the underminers. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/891 "2014-01-16T05:19:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Is there really no room for honest disagreement over policy in your worldview? Must anyone who disagrees with Obama be either trying to destroy him for spite, or be the puppet of those who are? For goodness’ sake, people can reasonably disagree over what course to take with Iran’s nuclear program. If you think Bolton is being reasonable in his disagreements with Obama over what course to take with Iran’s nuclear program then I guess you’d have an argument. I don’t. If it comes down to bombing Iran into solving the nuclear issue because Bolton’s lack of reason prevails - say the hardliners in Iran win over the moderates if something dealing with new sanctions is passed in the US Congress - then will you be complaining about my position or will you be fine with it? You know, both sides are reasonable and ‘bombs’ happen - thats ok we all can reasonably disagree. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/892 "2014-01-16T05:24:24Z")
Does anyone here think the Dems in the Senate are reasonably correct to expect that passing something right now actually strengthens Obama’s hand in securing a good long term deal with Iran to be certain they do not acquire a nuclear bomb? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/893 "2014-01-16T05:38:45Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > This is the gist of every > single > one > of > your > arguments What is wrong with that? I trust Obama’s judgement on Iran. I totally reject the polar opposite judgement of John Bolton. How about you? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/894 "2014-01-16T07:45:02Z")
The Dems favoring the sanctions bill with Republicans apparrently could not argue a reasonable case for doing so face to face with Obama. That does not show a reasonable argument exists in opposition to Obama on Iran, does it? > [@](#): > > Four Senate aides said the president warned that new sanctions could derail the fragile nuclear talks. Obama “made a really strong case for his position on Iran” in the hopes of giving “pause to anyone who wanted a vote while negotiations were ongoing,” one of the aides said. After Obama made the case against sanctions, not a single supporter argued the opposite case, sources said. > > [Obama Urges Senate Democrats To Oppose Iran Sanctions In Closed-Door Meeting | HuffPost Latest News](http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4605838/) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/895 "2014-01-16T07:54:41Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Does anyone here think the Dems in the Senate are reasonably correct to expect that passing something right now actually strengthens Obama’s hand in securing a good long term deal with Iran to be certain they do not acquire a nuclear bomb? I sure don’t get the reasoning. I think that his veto of the bill will, in a weird way, give him a stronger bargaining position with the Iranians, but I don’t think that the Senate Democrats are reasoning that way. I don’t understand why they aren’t willing to let him handle the diplomacy, the way the Constitution recommends. It isn’t usual for the Senate to shove their way into negotiations of this type, is it? It certainly seems ham-fisted to me. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/896 "2014-01-16T13:58:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, they’re not trying to undermine Obama, they’re just really, really stupid. Too stupid to realize that they are “being used” but the underminers. > > Got it. When they met with Obama yesterday on Iran sanctions it is being reported that the Dem Senators were dead silent with no argument to defend what they have been agitating about. I have no problem calling them stupid when they cannot articulate a defense of their so-called honest readonable dissagreement with Obama on this. Come on, i am right on this and you must know it. Since you don’t appear to have an argument that defines why I am wrong or that these Senators are being honest and reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/897 "2014-01-16T14:13:12Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I sure don’t get the reasoning. > > I think that his veto of the bill will, in a weird way, give him a stronger bargaining position with the Iranians, but I don’t think that the Senate Democrats are reasoning that way. I don’t understand why they aren’t willing to let him handle the diplomacy, the way the Constitution recommends. It isn’t usual for the Senate to shove their way into negotiations of this type, is it? It certainly seems ham-fisted to me. I get the reasoning why Republicans are doing it. If Obama succeeds much of the neocon marketplace for ideas will dry up and they will need a new boogyman to fear up the American public. Diplomacy/Sanctions with enough international clout will be shown to prevail over ‘military might makes the only right’ obsession they have. The dishonesty on the right is that Obama has been tough and militaristic whe the need exists but a strong backer of diplomacy when diplomacy has a chance to work. I like that in a President / any President. Obama’s predecessor had a chance to show that kind of wisdom if any readers wish to know a reference point from how I am assessing Obama’s job performance on national security. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/898 "2014-01-16T14:17:18Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > When they met with Obama yesterday on Iran sanctions it is being reported that the Dem Senators were dead silent with no argument to defend what they have been agitating about. I have no problem calling them stupid when they cannot articulate a defense of their so-called honest readonable dissagreement with Obama on this. Come on, i am right on this and you must know it. Since you don’t appear to have an argument that defines why I am wrong or that these Senators are being honest and reasonable. They’ve made their argument plenty of times in the past, and it’s very simple: **They don’t trust the Iranians.** Many of them have been at this game much longer than Obama. Now, I don’t agree with them, but I don’t think think they are being stupid, either. Reasonable people can disagree about what we need to do going forward. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/899 "2014-01-16T14:24:56Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If you think Bolton is being reasonable in his disagreements with Obama over what course to take with Iran’s nuclear program then I guess you’d have an argument. I don’t. You miss my point: it’s not that you think Bolton et al are being unreasonable, or that you think they’re wrong - it’s that you claim that not even _they_ believe what they are saying, that they really know that Obama’s stance is the best one and they try and sabotage his efforts to attack his popularity. That’s simply not conducive to fair-minded debate. Debate requires honest discussion of the actual points of contention, not demonizing the other guy. [QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] If it comes down to bombing Iran into solving the nuclear issue because Bolton’s lack of reason prevails - say the hardliners in Iran win over the moderates if something dealing with new sanctions is passed in the US Congress - then will you be complaining about my position or will you be fine with it? You know, both sides are reasonable and ‘bombs’ happen - thats ok we all can reasonably disagree. [/QUOTE] It’s not your position on the Iranian issue I have a problem with, it’s the way you approach debate and way you characterize those who disagree with your position. An attack on Iran wouldn’t change those things. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/900 "2014-01-16T14:44:24Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I sure don’t get the reasoning. > > I think that his veto of the bill will, in a weird way, give him a stronger bargaining position with the Iranians, but I don’t think that the Senate Democrats are reasoning that way. I don’t understand why they aren’t willing to let him handle the diplomacy, the way the Constitution recommends. It isn’t usual for the Senate to shove their way into negotiations of this type, is it? It certainly seems ham-fisted to me. I agree with you that a veto by Obama may show him in a favorable position with moderates in Iran, however when this Senate action came up last summer there were enough Senators on board with Republicans to over-ride a veto. That (Dems support) has tapered off since then but taking a chance on that seems senseless in the consequences are bigger than any small benefit. Obama is already in a strong position on this and Dems should let the Republicans founder and sink on it all on there own. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=46)