# Iran/Persia, Thailand/Siam **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 15, 2019, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121 "2019-07-15T10:04:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TaoPilot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TaoPilot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TaoPilot)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/1 "2019-07-15T10:04:20Z")
There are many countries in the world that don’t care what English speakers call them. Germany doesn’t seem to mind that we don’t call them Deutschland, and China doesn’t seem to mind that we don’t call them ZhongGuo. So why is it such a big deal for Iran and Thailand that we don’t call them Persia and Siam? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/2 "2019-07-15T10:17:45Z")
Because they deliberately changed their names, and relatively recently, as a political signal. It’s not just a matter of linguistic habit. Same with Burma/Myanmar ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/3 "2019-07-15T14:56:38Z")
from [Name of Iran - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Iran) > [@](#): > > It is the case in many countries that the country’s native name is different from its international name (see Exonym), but for Persians and Iranians this issue has been very controversial. Main points on this matter: > > Persia is the Western name of the country, and Iranians were calling their country Iran for over a millennium. > Persia only represents ethnic Persians and not other Iranian ethnicities. > Persia and the name of a province of Iran (viz., Pars) are from the same root, and may cause confusion. > The exonym Persia comes from Pars but the meaning shifted to refer to the whole country. > > In Western languages, all famous cultural aspects of Iran have been recorded as Persian (e.g., Persian carpet, Persian Gulf, Persian cat, Persian New Year, Persian language, Persian cuisine, Persian theater, Persian literature, Persian melon, Persian Empire, etc.)[16] > There are many Iranians in the West who prefer Persia and Persian as the English names for the country and nationality, similar to the usage of La Perse/persan in French. According to Hooman Majd, the popularity of the term Persia among the Persian diaspora stems from the fact that “‘Persia’ connotes a glorious past they would like to be identified with, while ‘Iran’ since 1979 revolution… says nothing to the world but Islamic fundamentalism.”[2] from [Myanmar - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myanmar) > [@](#): > > Both the names Myanmar and Burma derive from the earlier Burmese Myanma, an ethnonym for the majority Bamar ethnic group, of uncertain etymology.[17] The terms are also popularly thought to derive from “Brahma Desha” after Brahma.[18] > > In 1989, the military government officially changed the English translations of many names dating back to Burma’s colonial period or earlier, including that of the country itself: “Burma” became “Myanmar”. The renaming remains a contested issue.[19] Many political and ethnic opposition groups and countries continue to use “Burma” because they do not recognise the legitimacy of the ruling military government or its authority to rename the country.[20] > > In April 2016, soon after taking office, Aung San Suu Kyi clarified that foreigners are free to use either name, “because there is nothing in the constitution of our country that says that you must use any term in particular”.[21] ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/4 "2019-07-15T16:47:03Z")
It can be a political statement as to which name you use. For example, some publications continued to use Burma because the name had been changed by a dictatorial military regime. The Khmer Rouge changed the official name of Cambodia to Kampuchea, a version of the name of the country in Khmer. This name was not widely recognized due to the genocidal policies of the Khmer Rouge. After their ouster, the official name of the country in English reverted to Cambodia, although Kampuchea is still used internally. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/5 "2019-07-15T17:36:59Z")
It seems to me that, for example, Persia could be seen as pretentious or as an insult, depending how it is used. When the Shah, who got his position because his father (or the CIA, depending who you believe) engineered a military coup, but pretentiously considered himself the continuation a millennia-old empire. Pretentious. However, labelling a country by a thousand-year-old empire’s name could also be seen as implying it is stuck in that era rather than finally making it into the 20th century, as Iran seems poised to do. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/6 "2019-07-15T17:50:54Z")
The [change from Siam to Thailand](https://www.historytoday.com/archive/siam-becomes-thailand) was made in 1939 as a signal of modernization as well as emphasizing its Thai ethnic makeup, especially with regard to its Chinese minority. (Also, historically Siam had also included all or parts of Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, and Burma. After these were lost to the French and British it became more homogeneously Thai.) ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/7 "2019-07-15T18:35:39Z")
“Myanmar Shave” doesn’t have the same ring to it. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/8 "2019-07-15T19:46:44Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > It seems to me that, for example, Persia could be seen as pretentious or as an insult, depending how it is used. When the Shah, who got his position because his father (or the CIA, depending who you believe) engineered a military coup, but pretentiously considered himself the continuation a millennia-old empire. Pretentious. However, labelling a country by a thousand-year-old empire’s name could also be seen as implying it is stuck in that era rather than finally making it into the 20th century, as Iran seems poised to do. Actually, it was the father who, in 1935, started asking people to start using “Iran” instead of “Persia”. It was not an ancient versus modern thing. It was a “what foreigners call us” versus “what we call ourselves” thing. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/9 "2019-07-15T21:08:14Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/10 "2019-07-15T21:37:43Z")
What’s the deal with “Rumania” and “Roumania” becoming “Romania?” ---
**Author:** ![EdelweissPirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@EdelweissPirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdelweissPirate)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/11 "2019-07-15T21:57:10Z")
Lamoral, those spellings are outdated alternative spellings in English; “Romania” is the official spelling in English these days. French used to have an outsized influence similar to that now enjoyed by English, and the country’s name in French is Roumanie, so that may have played a role in the popularity of “Roumania.” I still sometimes see English documents that use the Arabic term for a gully or wash, spelling it “ouadi.” Because the French colonized North Africa and because I happen to know some French, this spelling makes sense to me. But it’s now much more common to see it spelled “wadi” in English, which works with American phonetic conventions. (I definitely don’t know Arabic, though. Any insights or corrections from people who know Arabic are more than welcome). ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/12 "2019-07-15T22:01:07Z")
Ceylon, Sri Lanka. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/13 "2019-07-15T22:05:32Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Ceylon, Sri Lanka. AKA Taprobane or Serendip. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/14 "2019-07-15T22:10:15Z")
Upper Volta --\> Burkina Faso Central African Republic --\> Central African Empire --\> Central African Republic. Dahomey --\> Benin ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/15 "2019-07-15T22:18:45Z")
Rhodesia \>\> Zimbabwe Northern Rhodesia \>\> Zambia Nyasaland \>\> Malawi ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/16 "2019-07-15T23:14:53Z")
Japan is really called Nihon, but the Japanese people don’t seem to mind it being called something else by most of the world. > **[Japanese culture: Why Japan is Japan? How Japan became Japan?](http://www.fuzita.org/jpculture/howmanyi/howjapan.html)** > > Japanese call Japan as Nihon or Nippon. Japan also has several synonyms ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/17 "2019-07-16T01:27:04Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Japan is really called Nihon, but the Japanese people don’t seem to mind it being called something else by most of the world. > > [Japanese culture: Why Japan is Japan? How Japan became Japan?](http://www.fuzita.org/jpculture/howmanyi/howjapan.html) Japan seems divided as to whether “Nippon” or “Nihon” is the correct pronunciation of the kanji that form the Japanese name of Japan. In English there is a tendency to avoid using “Nippon” unless it’s part of a name of an organization that officially uses that pronunciation, but “Nippon” is regarded as a more formal version as it dates to an earlier time while “Nihon” is somewhat of a neologism (though still quite old by now). > **[Nippon or Nihon? No consensus on Japanese pronunciation of Japan](https://japantoday.com/category/features/nippon-or-nihon-no-consensus-on-japanese-pronunciation-of-japan)** > > As any student of Japanese will tell you, its use of Chinese characters known as kanji can be a nightmare at times. And although they can be really useful at deducing the meaning of complex words, they give little in the way of clues as to how one... Not that this has much to do with the rest of the thread, other than the fact that according to that article, the government decided that either one is fine, and so they really don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/18 "2019-07-16T01:38:28Z")
Recent ones: Swaziland is now (Kingdom of) Eswatini (April 2018). The Czech Republic **did not** change their name, but started accepting the short form Czechia in 2016. In my experience many Czechs don’t really care. The Ivory Coast is officially Côte d’Ivoire even in English, but that one’s not really sticking. ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/19 "2019-07-16T01:50:14Z")
Here’s one country that cares what it’s called. According to wikipedia, "in April 1986, the government declared that Côte d’Ivoire (or, more fully, République de Côte d’Ivoire) would be its formal name for the purposes of diplomatic protocol, and since then officially refuses to recognize or accept any translation from French to another language in its international dealings. Despite the Ivorian government’s request, the English translation “Ivory Coast” (often “the Ivory Coast”) is still frequently used in English by various media outlets and publications." The CIA Factbook does abide by this request and lists “Ivory Coast” only as the country’s former name. Oops, ninja’d by **thelurkinghorror**! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121/20 "2019-07-16T03:27:27Z")
I’ve heard that Ukrainians get annoyed if you call their country the Ukraine rather than Ukraine. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-persia-thailand-siam/837121.md?page=2)