# Iran shoots down U.S. aircraft over international waters. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812 "2019-06-20T16:27:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/321 "2019-06-27T15:42:18Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The point is, Iran doesn’t have some sort of special beef against the United States. Yes, America suppressed democracy there. Once. In 1953. For 20 minutes. All due respect my dude (and I tend to respect you as a poster, for all the good that does you), but that’s some \*serious \*whitewashing of the Shah’s reign. He was, to borrow the words of a prominent modern geopolitical scholar, a bad hombre, a really bad dude, and his rule was marked by the (at the time) highest rate of death penalties in the world, no civilian courts, routinely imprisoned and tortured political opponents and a pervasive secret police on par with the Stasi - and helped directly by the CIA. Also it lasted 20+ years, not 20 minutes. I dunno about you, but I rather think if my country got dictator’d, my friends were jailed and my favourite teacher got tortured and shot; I would likely consider that beef-worthy towards the endictatoring party for at least a \*little \*while. > [@](#): > > But it’s had plenty of opportunities to restore it since then, especially in the 40 years since the Shah was kicked out. The fact that they haven’t done it since then means that it was never all that important to them in the first place. Or possibly 20 years of systematic torturing, jailing, killing democratic voices and leftist leaders sort of put a lid on all that stuff. Recovering from a dictature is not easy, all the moreso that a dictatorship tends to normalize behaviours and methods anathema to democracy, both among the rulers and the rulees. E.g. there’s a reason the lofty ideals of the French Revolution rather quickly devolved back into “OK, bear with me guys : what if a Sun King, but in a spiffy uniform and a neato hat instead ?” ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/322 "2019-06-27T16:13:12Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Or possibly 20 years of systematic torturing, jailing, killing democratic voices and leftist leaders sort of put a lid on all that stuff. Recovering from a dictature is not easy, all the moreso that a dictatorship tends to normalize behaviours and methods anathema to democracy, both among the rulers and the rulees. > E.g. there’s a reason the lofty ideals of the French Revolution rather quickly devolved back into “OK, bear with me guys : what if a Sun King, but in a spiffy uniform and a neato hat instead ?” THIS. It’s very easy from established democracies to judge other countries and say “well if they wanted to be democratic they would be by now” Its extremely HARD to establish a durable democracy, and is harder when you are poor, dealing with sanctions and recovering from a 20 year long reign of terror. Also, having the self-proclaimed defender and symbol of democracy instigating a coup against your democratically elected government and then supporting the aforementioned 20 years of terror tends to discredit democracy juuuust a little bit in the eyes of the victim society, don’t you think?. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/323 "2019-06-27T17:08:26Z")
I guess we can say the same about Saudi Arabia: sure, it’s be great to establish basic human rights there, but it is just sooooooo hard. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/324 "2019-06-28T09:30:30Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I admit I don’t recall seeingB]Dibble\*\* saying anything that would come across as a condemnation of Iran attacking the Japanese tanker etc. That’s because I doubt they did. And the reason I doubt they did is because America is saying they did. I certainly condemn whoever _did_ attack that tanker. If that _does_ turn out to be Iran as a state actor, consider my condemnation as read. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/325 "2019-06-28T09:41:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I dunno about you, but I rather think if my country got dictator’d, my friends were jailed and my favourite teacher got tortured and shot; I would likely consider that beef-worthy towards the endictatoring party for at least a \*little \*while. I know it’s the same reason I _still_ wouldn’t piss on anyone working for the CIA if they were on fire, given what they did in South Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/326 "2019-07-19T18:20:48Z")
Iran: ["Hey guys! We seized a British oil tanker!](https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/iran-british-tanker-july-2019/index.html?adkey=bn)" Some portion of the SDMB: “False flag! The Saudis did it! Dick Cheney did it! It’s the Brits’ fault, even though it didn’t happen! Trump just wants war!” ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/327 "2019-07-19T18:30:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Iran: ["Hey guys! We seized a British oil tanker!](https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/iran-british-tanker-july-2019/index.html?adkey=bn)" > > Some portion of the SDMB: “False flag! The Saudis did it! Dick Cheney did it! It’s the Brits’ fault, even though it didn’t happen! Trump just wants war!” I expect it’s payback for the British Royal Marines [seizing an Iranian oil tanker](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48871462) in Gibraltar a few weeks ago. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/328 "2019-07-19T18:32:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Iran: ["Hey guys! We seized a British oil tanker!](https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/iran-british-tanker-july-2019/index.html?adkey=bn)" > > Some portion of the SDMB: “False flag! The Saudis did it! Dick Cheney did it! It’s the Brits’ fault, even though it didn’t happen! Trump just wants war!” Yeah that seems bad. What’s it have to do with the US? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/329 "2019-07-19T18:43:50Z")
Some other portion of the SDMB: just trust the CIA. They wouldn’t lie to anyone. Ravenman, you seem to be under the impression that despite the massive lies and disastrous invasion that has plunged the region into crazy bloodshed that will last a generation, we should still trust American sources on these issues. Because you’re the good guys? I guess? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/330 "2019-07-19T18:48:26Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Iran: ["Hey guys! We seized a British oil tanker!](https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/iran-british-tanker-july-2019/index.html?adkey=bn)" > > Some portion of the SDMB: “False flag! The Saudis did it! Dick Cheney did it! It’s the Brits’ fault, even though it didn’t happen! Trump just wants war!” Nice straw man, ya got there.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/331 "2019-07-19T18:50:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Some other portion of the SDMB: just trust the CIA. They wouldn’t lie to anyone. > > Ravenman, you seem to be under the impression that despite the massive lies and disastrous invasion that has plunged the region into crazy bloodshed that will last a generation, we should still trust American sources on these issues. Because you’re the good guys? I guess? I don’t think he’s even arguing that; I think he’s trying to say that the US can fuck with Iran, but the moment Iran tries to fuck with us back, that constitutes an “escalation.” Ravenman, sorry, bub, but as I said earlier in the thread, countries don’t let you just take them over the way they used to. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/332 "2019-07-19T18:54:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Yeah that seems bad. What’s it have to do with the US? From the article about the seizure of the Iranian ship a few weeks ago: > [@](#): > > Spain’s acting foreign minister said the seizure of the [Iranian] ship - Grace 1 - was at the US’s request. So, technically, the U.S. seized an oil tanker first - using one of their proxies, the U.K. 😉 - and this incident is an Iranian tit-for-tat response. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/333 "2019-07-19T19:10:00Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > From the article about the seizure of the Iranian ship a few weeks ago: > > So, technically, the U.S. seized an oil tanker first - using one of their proxies, the U.K. 😉 - and this incident is an Iranian tit-for-tat response. Let’s not forget that the U.S. unilaterally, over the objections of the EU, withdrew from the Iran nuclear framework, and let’s also not forget that the US has threatened to punish any and all foreign companies that do business with Iran. Moreover, have been pressured not to buy oil from Iran, virtually placing the country in an economic choke-hold. Oh, and there’s that bit about the President’s hand-picked cabinet expressly advocating for regime change. So, like, there’s that… ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/334 "2019-07-19T19:10:48Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > From the article about the seizure of the Iranian ship a few weeks ago: > > So, technically, the U.S. seized an oil tanker first - using one of their proxies, the U.K. 😉 - and this incident is an Iranian tit-for-tat response. Well, damn! We should be getting the nukes ready! That’ll show 'em they can’t just do whatever WE do! ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/335 "2019-07-19T19:19:54Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Let’s not forget that the U.S. unilaterally, over the objections of the EU, withdrew from the Iran nuclear framework, and let’s also not forget that the US has threatened to punish any and all foreign companies that do business with Iran. Moreover, have been pressured not to buy oil from Iran, virtually placing the country in an economic choke-hold. Oh, and there’s that bit about the President’s hand-picked cabinet expressly advocating for regime change. > > So, like, there’s that… Yeah, it’s a mixture of the Iranians being in “You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry!” mode - justifiably angry, in my opinion, due to Trump’s actions - and keeping the pressure on to ensure they have a strong hand when it comes to negotiations, as they will not want to be pushed into accepting a deal that is worse than the previous one. ---
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/336 "2019-07-19T19:27:55Z")
I continue to marvel? despair? that we have to weigh the veracity of the American President against the friggin’ _Iranian National Guard_ and we still can’t reliably say which is more trustworthy. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/337 "2019-07-19T19:59:08Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > as they will not want to be pushed into accepting a deal that is worse than the previous one. The next deal will likely be \*better \*for them, or at least stronger for them and weaker for us. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/338 "2019-07-19T20:06:03Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The next deal will likely be \*better \*for them, or at least stronger for them and weaker for us. I’m willing to bet money that when a deal is made that is worse for us, the President says it is better than the crappy deal Obama made. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/339 "2019-07-19T20:16:59Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Ravenman, you seem to be under the impression that despite the massive lies and disastrous invasion that has plunged the region into crazy bloodshed that will last a generation, we should still trust American sources on these issues. Because you’re the good guys? I guess? Hey! **asahi**! Remember when you accused me of creating a straw man with my post? Did you see this one? Is my silly post still soooo outrageous? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/340 "2019-07-19T20:53:13Z")
I haven’t called “false flag” or anything else in your silly caricature of what’s been argued. And you have most definitely given out a “come on, who you gonna trust? Us or those crazy Iranians?” vibe. Yes, your post was soooo outrageous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812.md?page=18)