# Iran shoots down U.S. aircraft over international waters. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812 "2019-06-20T16:27:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/101 "2019-06-21T12:08:44Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I’m pretty sure that if an Iranian drone entered U.S. airspace, the U.S. would shoot it down without a second thought. And would probably also should the drone linger just outside of our airspace. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/102 "2019-06-21T12:25:02Z")
[Life imitates art.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-JA1ffd5Ms) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/103 "2019-06-21T12:39:19Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > One could argue that the US provoked first in this case. It provoked Iran by reneging on a deal that was actually effectively suspending Iran’s nuclear weapons program, and it provoked Iran further by imposing harsh sanctions on Iran, which is within our legal right to do but provocative. Adding the dimension of sending more military personnel and activity on Iran’s doorstep was further provocation. Yes, Iran is behaving provocatively in a technical sense, but in the broader political context, it’s simply responding to US provocation. You hit on my point exactly: all of Trump’s provocations are 100% legal (so far as I can tell), but they are bad policy and bring us closer to war. Repeating that Iran can legally shoot down an aircraft in its airspace – which I am not inclined to believe is the case, because I have a hard time seeing that the drone actually was within 12 miles of the coast – does not negate that shooting it down was a provocative act, bad policy, and brings us closer to war. Which is why I’m astounded that several posters here are not only giving significant deference to Iran’s assertions, but to some degree defending their actions. You in particular have issued a broad defense of Iran to use violence in response to sanctions. I suspect some of these incredible positions is because hatred of Trump is causing some to take reflexive, rather than thought-out, positions on these things. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/104 "2019-06-21T12:51:19Z")
Well, good for you, but as far as I can tell, the general position is that _ **if** _ the drone was in Iranian territory, they had a right to shoot it down, and American statements that the drone was _ **not** _ in Iranian territory are not credible given this administration’s history. It seems perfectly reasonable to me at this stage. You are choosing to believe the American account, which is fine if a bit premature. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/105 "2019-06-21T12:56:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > … American statements that the drone was _ **not** _ in Iranian territory are not credible given this administration’s history. And for the moment, you think Iran is more credible? Others here seem to have come to that conclusion. I’d just like to start making a list of those who think Iran is more trustworthy. > [@](#): > > Well, good for you, but as far as I can tell, the general position is that if the drone was in Iranian territory, they had a right to shoot it down… And can you agree that shooting down a foreign aircraft, even if it would be legal to do so, is a provocative act when it comes in the context of two countries being on the verge of war? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/106 "2019-06-21T13:04:03Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You hit on my point exactly: all of Trump’s provocations are 100% legal (so far as I can tell), but they are bad policy and bring us closer to war. > > Repeating that Iran can legally shoot down an aircraft in its airspace – which I am not inclined to believe is the case, because I have a hard time seeing that the drone actually was within 12 miles of the coast – does not negate that shooting it down was a provocative act, bad policy, and brings us closer to war. > > Which is why I’m astounded that several posters here are not only giving significant deference to Iran’s assertions, but to some degree defending their actions. **You in particular have issued a broad defense of Iran to use violence in response to sanctions.** I suspect some of these incredible positions is because hatred of Trump is causing some to take reflexive, rather than thought-out, positions on these things. I don’t recall justifying the use of violence in response to sanctions, and I didn’t really even say that Iran was “right” or “justified” in shooting down the drone. I don’t really have an opinion on whether Iran should or shouldn’t have downed our drone. It probably was a provocative act, but that act can’t be viewed in isolation. If the US were minding its own business with the nuclear framework in place, if we weren’t imposing extremely harsh sanctions on Iran, if we weren’t threatening European, Canadian, and Japanese governments and businesses for doing business with Iran, if we hadn’t already invaded, occupied, overthrown the government in neighboring Iraq, if we were just minding our own business and sending regular naval patrols in international waters, I would agree that shooting down a reconnaissance drone is, without a doubt, a provocative act. But in this particular case, to say that Iran’s shooting down a US drone is an incontrovertibly provocative act requires one to ignore all of the conditionals that I just mentioned, which is absurd to any person with a shred of logical and analytical reasoning skills. I have not suggested that Iran has the right to use violence; I have said that sanctions have real life consequences that can be interpreted as hostile acts of war. I don’t care what the official encyclopedia of whatever tells you sanctions are: the fact that regimes like North Korea, Iran, and Russia become more desperate to arm themselves to the teeth and to lash out at the United States should tell you all you need to know about sanctions. You stubbornly refuse to budge on your own conventional understanding of what sanctions are, just like those who administer US foreign policy have for decades. There are consequences - that’s what I’m saying. I’m not defending Iran’s hostility or violence - Iran has a rather large buffet of items to choose from that I could criticize them for. That’s beside the point. Iran can be expected like any nation to defend itself against hostile behavior, and we have an ethical responsibility to understand that, not only for the sake of Iran’s civilians but also for the protection of our own military personnel and Americans abroad and at home. We have a responsibility to behave responsibly. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/107 "2019-06-21T13:04:16Z")
Beyond the rhetoric coming from the Iranian hard line military leaders, I doubt Iran is actually spoiling for a fight with the US and allies. I don’t think Iran’s leadership thinks for a second that they could win a war and I don’t believe that inflicting some superficial losses on America and it’s interests would be so satisfying that it would justify Iran’s destruction and resulting regime change. I think they’ve lost control of some faction of the military and are working to gain back that control. The imminent threat of an attack by the US might be enough to give the more moderate Iranian leadership a shot at wrestling back control of their own military. It would not surprise me if this entire event was orchestrated through back channels between US/Iran intermediaries to accomplish just that. At least that’s what I would like to think has happened. Time will tell. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/108 "2019-06-21T13:07:24Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > … I’d just like to start making a list of those who think Iran is more trustworthy. > > … More trustworthy than Trump? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/109 "2019-06-21T13:14:37Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Beyond the rhetoric coming from the Iranian hard line military leaders, I doubt Iran is actually spoiling for a fight with the US and allies. I agree that they’re not, but perhaps Iran believes that this administration is hellbent on war. So if you assume that’s the case, then it might actually make sense for Iran to provoke a conflict before the US is actually ready for one. A country has a choice: it can demonstrate that it wants peace and watch as its opponent builds up enough force to crush its military and overthrow the regime, as Saddam Hussein did, or it can bait its opponent into an attack before its ready. Diplomatically, the smart thing to do is to demonstrate to the outside world that it’s not the aggressor, but what’s smart diplomatically is dumb when you know that you’re on your own and no country is going to stop it from being attacked. So the smart choice then isn’t to wait, but to bait the opponent into an attack before it’s prepared to do so – in the meantime, maybe you hope that enough intelligent people can prevent this administration from getting into another idiotic war. I know it sounds like I might be sympathetic to Iran, but I’m not. I’m only sympathetic to the civilians who don’t need to die, but I’m much more worried about the consequences to our country and to the entire region. I’m more concerned about the global economy. And of course the state of liberty and democracy in our own society, which will inevitably be threatened once we give this president the ability to _really_ expand his power. Few people are talking about it, but one of the legacies of the war on terror is that the president, who already had a lot of powers even before that, has even more sweeping powers now. And with this president, you’d better believe that he will assert powers for himself regardless of whether they exist or not. American democracy is in grave danger, and Iran is not the threat. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/110 "2019-06-21T13:15:11Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > More trustworthy than Trump? It was always going to come to this. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/111 "2019-06-21T13:15:56Z")
Look, I don’t care who you are or what happened but if it is a too close to tell difference between needing to punch an 800 lb gorilla in the face after someone stole his bananas and just leaving him the hell alone, Iran was very very stupid in antagonizing the US in this way. Whether they were potentially ‘strictly right’ or not. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/112 "2019-06-21T13:16:07Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > More trustworthy than Trump? Than the U.S. Government generally. Such as this quote from Adam Smith, the Democratic Chair of the Armed Services Committee: > [@](#): > > SHAPIRO: I realize there was classified information at this briefing, but what can you tell us about what you learned this afternoon? > > SMITH: Well, a couple things. The biggest points that the administration wanted to drive home was that they have conclusive evidence that the Iranian military shot down our drone that was flying in international waters. And they made a very convincing case that that is what happened. Again, Iran is tentatively viewed as more credible than the Democrat in charge of oversight of the military? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/113 "2019-06-21T13:20:13Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I don’t recall justifying the use of violence in response to sanctions… You have a history of saying that sanctions ARE war, and you raised it again in this thread. It would follow that violence in retaliation to sanction is justified, in your view. If you want to clearly state for the record that countries are not justified in using violence when they are faced with sanctions, now would be a great time to clear that up. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/114 "2019-06-21T13:21:43Z")
America is to George Zimmerman what Iran is to Trayvon Martin. There, does that make sense? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/115 "2019-06-21T13:21:56Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I agree that they’re not, but **perhaps Iran believes that this administration is hellbent on war. So if you assume that’s the case, then it might actually make sense for Iran to provoke a conflict before the US is actually ready for one.** A country has a choice: it can demonstrate that it wants peace and watch as its opponent builds up enough force to crush its military and overthrow the regime, as Saddam Hussein did, or it can bait its opponent into an attack before its ready. Diplomatically, the smart thing to do is to demonstrate to the outside world that it’s not the aggressor, but what’s smart diplomatically is dumb when you know that you’re on your own and no country is going to stop it from being attacked. So the smart choice then isn’t to wait, but to bait the opponent into an attack before it’s prepared to do so – in the meantime, maybe you hope that enough intelligent people can prevent this administration from getting into another idiotic war. > > I know it sounds like I might be sympathetic to Iran, but I’m not. I’m only sympathetic to the civilians who don’t need to die, but I’m much more worried about the consequences to our country and to the entire region. I’m more concerned about the global economy. And of course the state of liberty and democracy in our own society, which will inevitably be threatened once we give this president the ability to _really_ expand his power. Few people are talking about it, but one of the legacies of the war on terror is that the president, who already had a lot of powers even before that, has even more sweeping powers now. And with this president, you’d better believe that he will assert powers for himself regardless of whether they exist or not. American democracy is in grave danger, and Iran is not the threat. \ All the rest is fodder for discussion, but I don’t believe for a second that Iran thinks it can catch the US unawares or that swinging first will give US even a moment’s pause. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/116 "2019-06-21T13:24:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You have a history of saying that sanctions ARE war, and you raised it again in this thread. It would follow that violence in retaliation to sanction is justified, in your view. > > If you want to clearly state for the record that countries are not justified in using violence when they are faced with sanctions, now would be a great time to clear that up. They are a form of warfare but not necessarily at the same level. It’s like battery and murder are both violence but one would not argue that battery is the same as murder. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/117 "2019-06-21T13:30:11Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > \ > > All the rest is fodder for discussion, but I don’t believe for a second that Iran thinks it can catch the US unawares or that swinging first will give US even a moment’s pause. I’m not a military strategist and I don’t have US Army War College training, so I can’t begin to understand how all of this would play out militarily. But just as a casual observer, one decision that Saddam Hussein made was to hunker down and prepare for an invasion militarily while hoping the rest of the world would pressure the US for a diplomatic resolution - that never came. We know the rest. My assumption is that Iran knows that just waiting around and doing nothing is probably not going to work to their advantage. So they’ll do the opposite of that. I would assume, therefore, that they’ll do what they can to disrupt the build up to war, whether it’s potentially causing economic harm or something else. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/118 "2019-06-21T13:32:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Than the U.S. Government generally. Such as this quote from Adam Smith, the Democratic Chair of the Armed Services Committee: > > Again, Iran is tentatively viewed as more credible than the Democrat in charge of oversight of the military? Certainly I trust that guy more than Trump. And I don’t even know who he is. He said that the administration made a convincing case. Good, take it to the public, take it to the UN. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/119 "2019-06-21T13:33:01Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > They are a form of warfare but not necessarily at the same level. It’s like battery and murder are both violence but one would not argue that battery is the same as murder. So… Iran can use little bits of violence to resist sanctions? For example, would killing non-Americans to resist sanctions (your choice, Iraqis, Saudis, Israelis) be cool? Or maybe just maiming them? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812/120 "2019-06-21T13:34:16Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Certainly I trust that guy more than Trump. And I don’t even know who he is. He said that the administration made a convincing case. Good, take it to the public, take it to the UN. I will say this, the case for attacks on Iran need to be taken to Congress for sure. Not just a briefing, but a vote. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-shoots-down-u-s-aircraft-over-international-waters/835812.md?page=7)