# Iran sponsors Holocaust cartoon contest **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2006, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351 "2006-02-07T05:34:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/41 "2006-02-07T16:03:32Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > You don’t have to believe the Holocaust occurred in order to know that printing cartoons sympathetic to HD would cause a firestorm of controversy in Europe. I so hope that doesn’t happen. The world, especially European countries, needs to just suck these images up with a heavy heart, shake our heads in the direction of Iran and then turn our backs and go on about our business. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/42 "2006-02-07T16:03:40Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Not only that, but it has been made abundantly clear over the decades by a variety of peoples and organizations that HD is offensive to most westerners. You don’t have to believe the Holocaust occurred in order to know that printing cartoons sympathetic to HD would cause a firestorm of controversy in Europe. I don’t think HD is ‘offensive’ to most westerners. Certainly not in the rabid religious way imaging Mohammed seems to be. We might not like it, we might see it as a dangerous falsehood but we don’t have the same visceral reaction. It’s not a fundamental component of our belief system. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/43 "2006-02-07T16:05:01Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > And? Read rest of post. Fact can’t be denied and fiction - it doesn’t the hell matter if you deny it or not. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/44 "2006-02-07T16:06:27Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > They may or may not believe the truth of the Holocaust denial (I don’t actually think they do, but just use it for inflammatory rhetoric) but that doesn’t follow from the fact that they can see that HD is offensive. I guess you’re right. Maybe their rhetoric will betray them a little more clearly in future. As another _non sequitur_, I will just point out that [Steve Bell is a genius](http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/0,,337484,00.html). ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/45 "2006-02-07T16:06:48Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > I so hope that doesn’t happen. The world, especially European countries, needs to just suck these images up with a heavy heart, shake our heads in the direction of Iran and then turn our backs and go on about our business. I agree completely. > [@tagos](#): > > Read rest of post. Fact can’t be denied and fiction - it doesn’t the hell matter if you deny it or not. I read the rest of your post. I still fail to see how it has any relevence to what we’re discussing. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/46 "2006-02-07T16:11:29Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > I agree completely. > > I read the rest of your post. I still fail to see how it has any relevence to what we’re discussing. It stems directly from your quote but I’ve not got time to play ‘cute’ with you. Ignore the posts. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/47 "2006-02-07T16:23:28Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Wrong - it’s only illegal in certain European countries. > > Yes, it does, because as far as I can tell, the restriction is not one imposed by central European government. Fair points: amend what I said to apply only to those European countries where Holocaust denial is illegal, and I think the point remains. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/48 "2006-02-07T16:30:35Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Fair points: amend what I said to apply only to those European countries where Holocaust denial is illegal, and I think the point remains. Certainly if there’s a government that has banned holocaust denial and also claims to fully uphold free speech regardless of the offense it may cause, then they are speaking with forked tongue, but is there any such government involved here, or is it the case that folks in Brussels are simply stating that they will not interfere? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/49 "2006-02-07T16:37:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Public denial of the Holocaust is a criminal offence in Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Lithuania, Netherlands, Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Switzerland, and is punishable by fines and jail sentences. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust\_denial](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/50 "2006-02-07T16:39:54Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Doesn’t look like these cartoon wars are going to end anytime soon. Will this be a fair test of the West’s ability to with and accept mockery of serious subjects or is this apples and Zebras re any comparison to the cartoons about Mohammed? > > [IRAN’S largest selling newspaper announced today it was holding a contest on cartoons of the Holocaust in response to the publishing in European papers of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed…](http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18066746-1702,00.html?from=rss) Actually, yes, it probably will be a fair test. The Islamic fundamentalists respond with riots and murder. Jews and other folks with a commitment to historical accuracy - don’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/51 "2006-02-07T16:40:32Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Certainly if there’s a government that has banned holocaust denial and also claims to fully uphold free speech regardless of the offense it may cause, then they are speaking with forked tongue, but is there any such government involved here, or is it the case that folks in Brussels are simply stating that they will not interfere? :smack: I believe I was, as I often do, getting confused between Denmark and the Netherlands. I though HD was illegal in Denmark. Phew. I don’t like thinking that **any** Holocaust Denier has a point about **anything**. Yep, he’s an idiot. Thanks for the corrections, y’all! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/52 "2006-02-07T17:17:00Z")
Not exactly the first (nor likely the last) time Isreal and/or Jews have been dipicted in such a manner by newspapers… not even that unusual in the last few years (esp in Iran, Syria, Lebonon, and Palestine)… Let them put all the cartoons out they want… as is their right… ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/53 "2006-02-07T22:52:44Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Now this is very annoying. > > [Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons](http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1703501,00.html) > [@](#): > > The Danish daily turned down the cartoons of Christ three years ago, on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers and were not funny. > > In April 2003, Danish illustrator Christoffer Zieler submitted a series of unsolicited cartoons dealing with the resurrection of Christ to Jyllands-Posten. > > Zieler received an email back from the paper’s Sunday editor, Jens Kaiser, which said: “I don’t think Jyllands-Posten’s readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore, I will not use them.” […] > > Mr Kaiser, said that the case was "ridiculous to bring forward now. It has nothing to do with the Muhammad cartoons. > > “In the Muhammad drawings case, we asked the illustrators to do it. I did not ask for these cartoons. That’s the difference,” he said. Hmmmm, now **there’s** an argument. “It isn’t a double standard to print cartoons that offend Muslims after refusing to print ones that offend Christians. Because, you see, we **solicited** anti-Muslim cartoons and not anti-Christian ones.” Ah yes, I see, not a double standard at all. Thanks for clearing that up for me. > [@Mangetout](#): > > Wow… so… let me get this straight… there are biased newspapers out there? > > I’m shocked; SHOCKED! I tell you! Well, it may not be shocking, but it **is** a somewhat embarrassing revelation for a paper that was bragging about being such a champion of free speech. This behavior does rather smack of the attitude that free speech is okay if it only offends the other guy, but not so much if it offends you. Which is the attitude that I thought we were condemning (and rightly so, IMHO) on the part of Iran and other Muslim nations that permit scurrilous anti-Jewish caricatures but won’t tolerate scurrilous anti-Muslim ones. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/54 "2006-02-07T23:03:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, it may not be shocking, but it **is** a somewhat embarrassing revelation for a paper that was bragging about being such a champion of free speech. This behavior does rather smack of the attitude that free speech is okay if it only offends the other guy, but not so much if it offends you. No, I actually disagree quite strongly with this one; freedom of speech means being able to say what _ **you** _ want to say, regardless of whether it praises, excites, bores, shocks, offends or insults anyone else. It is absolutely NOT about being compelled to say _what other people would like you to say_, to appease their sense of fairness, or any other of their motives. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/55 "2006-02-07T23:43:12Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > No, I actually disagree quite strongly with this one; freedom of speech means being able to say what you want to say, regardless of whether it praises, excites, bores, shocks, offends or insults anyone else. That’s reasonable. But by that standard, unwillingness to “provoke an outcry”—which was one of the reasons _Jyllands-Posten_ gave for passing on the Jesus cartoons—is not a legitimate reason for refusing to publish something. If you publish whatever you damn well please without caring at all whether anybody is offended by it, that’s one thing. But if your publication decisions are influenced by a wish to avoid giving offense to Christians, while you’re perfectly willing to give offense to Muslims, that’s something else again—something called “hypocrisy”. Many people around here have complained (and rightly so, IMO) that the press and the arts are too willing to apply a double standard, freely satirizing Christian or Jewish beliefs while refraining from doing the same to Muslim ones, out of fear of violent retaliation. Well, if we’re going to criticize that kind of double standard, we should also criticize it when it’s applied the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/56 "2006-02-08T00:10:15Z")
That’s a fair criticism, but being fair and balanced is not the same thing as having free speech and we shouldn’t conflate the two things; free speech permits expression of hypocrisy, and it permits criticism of hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/57 "2006-02-08T00:49:34Z")
Well we could go into the ins and outs of free speech all we want but I doubt the details will matter much to the people on the streets and the people stirring their anger. As I said > [@](#): > > There may have been totally different reasons and editorial reasons for this but in the light of recent events it would have been nice to be able to point to these cartoons to show a non-Muslim bias. Unfortunately now the accusations can start flowing. Whether right or wrong do you really think this isn’t going to be used to show that the Danish paper and by extension the Danish government and people\* are indeed anti-Muslim. BTW a poster on another board seems to have found what looks like some of the Jesus cartoons. [Here](http://www.zieler.dk/images.asp?fnavn=1opstandelsesspalte%202004.jpg&mappe=m-images&home=m-index.asp) The translations of the text are “Ressurection with a twist”, “Sideways ressurection”, “Ressurection in darkness over water” and “Savior-cam”. If these is the cartoons in question they seem rather tame IMO. \*This is the way these fuckwits are extending their BS after all. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/58 "2006-02-08T04:19:35Z")
[The first couple of times I read this thread, I skimmed and thought it said “Iran sponsors Holocaust conference.” I thought the idea of a Holocaust denial conference was bizarre.] Anyway, I think this is a great idea. When Iran runs these cartoons and the world’s Jews voice their displeasure _without_ rioting, throwing bombs and calling for the death of the people who drew them, these fanatics will look even stupider. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/59 "2006-02-08T04:41:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [The first couple of times I read this thread, I skimmed and thought it said “Iran sponsors Holocaust conference.” I thought the idea of a Holocaust denial conference was bizarre.] > > Anyway, I think this is a great idea. When Iran runs these cartoons and the world’s Jews voice their displeasure _without_ rioting, throwing bombs and calling for the death of the people who drew them, these fanatics will look even stupider. that will be nice–are you perhaps too \optimistic? Remember The Cave of the Patriarchs? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351/60 "2006-02-08T05:42:14Z")
[quote] **Kimstu** : If you publish whatever you damn well please without caring at all whether anybody is offended by it, that’s one thing. But if your publication decisions are influenced by a wish to avoid giving offense to Christians, while you’re perfectly willing to give offense to Muslims, that’s something else again—something called “hypocrisy”. I wonder if the Danes thought the Mohammed cartoons were amusing. They didn’t find the ones about Jesus to be funny. I don’t take Danes too seriously when they say they were concerned about offending Christians. I’ve never seen a more irreverent bunch or kinder folk. > [@](#): > > \*\* Lonesome Polecat\*\*: So can we just reprint Son O’ God comics from the old National Lampoon in the New York Times and call it even? Does that include the _Jessica Christ_ issue? Oh, wow. Head rush!!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-sponsors-holocaust-cartoon-contest/343351.md?page=4)