# Iran: Whoa, is this true? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591 "2007-03-26T19:26:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/1 "2007-03-26T19:26:20Z")
I was reading the transcript for the adoption of [Resolution 1747](http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N07/281/52/PDF/N0728152.pdf?OpenElement) regarding sanctions against Iran. The representative of Iran said some interesting things, that I just can’t believe are true. Here are some excerpts. Can anyone debunk them? > [@](#): > > . . . Iran has not started a war in the last 200 years. > [@](#): > > Iran has never had a role in crimes against humanity or genocide > [@](#): > > When Saddam Hussein invaded Iran 27 years ago, the Council waited seven days so that Iraq could occupy 30,000 kilometers of Iranian territory. Then it adopted resolution 479 (1980). That adopted a resolution and asked the two sides to stop hostilities, without asking the aggressor to withdraw. > [@](#): > > In the course of the war [with Iran], the United States joined the United Kingdom, Germany, France, and the Soviet Union . . in providing Saddam with military hardware, intelligence, and material for chemical and biological weapons. > [@](#): > > [Iran] has been the victim of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction in the last eight-year war. > [@](#): > > When the Iranian people nationalized their oil industry, they [the UNSC] attempted to impose a resolution . . . condemning Iran for threatening peace and security. > [@](#): > > The [IAEA] confirmed in 2003, and has mainained since then, that to date, there is no evidence that previously nuclear material and activities were related to a nuclear weapons programme So which is it? Is Iran a rogue nation? Or is it a victim the Western hatred? If its the latter, what is so darned special about Iran? If Iran hasn’t started a war in 200 years, then why would the United States give Saddam weapons to launch a war against them? - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2007, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/2 "2007-03-26T19:47:13Z")
You ever hear about the Iranian revolution? The deposition of the Shah? The Iranian hostage crisis? Can you really be asking these questions out of ignorance? Or are these rhetorical questions that you already believe you have answers to? Or are you genuinely curious? If so, why not do some reading first? Have you considered Wikipedia as a first step? ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/3 "2007-03-26T20:14:04Z")
I’ll give **honesty** the benefit of the doubt and assume s/he really doesn’t know the history… Check [this page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) out - pretty good historical overview of Iran. > [@](#): > > The rise of modernization and encroachment of stronger Western powers in the late nineteenth century led to the Persian Constitutional Revolution of 1905-1911. Reformers hoped the constitution would strengthen Iran against imperial Russia and Britain by centralizing and modernizing it. Ultimately the constitution became law, but its provisions were seldom followed during most of its history. In 1921, Cossack army officer Reza Khan (known as Reza Shah after assuming the throne) staged a coup against the weakened Qajar dynasty. An autocrat and supporter of modernization, Reza Shah initiated the development of modern industry, railroads, and establishment of a national education system. Reza Shah sought to balance the influence of Russia and Britain by seeking out assistance and technology from European powers traditionally not involved in Iranian affairs, but when World War II started his closeness to Germany alarmed allied powers Russia and Britain, Germany’s enemies. > > Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh, Iranian prime minister overthrown in a CIA-backed coup in 1953In summer of 1941 Britain and the USSR invaded Iran to prevent Iran from allying with the Axis powers. The Allies occupied Iran, securing a supply line to Russia, Iran’s petroleum infrastructure, and forced the Shah to abdicate in favor of his son, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi. In 1951, a nationalist politician, Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh rose to prominence in Iran and was elected Prime Minister. As Prime Minister, Mossadegh became enormously popular in Iran by nationalizing the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (later British Petroleum, BP) which controlled the country’s oil reserves. In response, Britain embargoed Iranian oil and began plotting to depose Mossadegh. Members of the British Intelligence Service invited the United States to join them, convincing U.S. President Eisenhower that Mossadegh was reliant on the Tudeh (Communist) Party to stay in power. In 1953, President Eisenhower authorized Operation Ajax, and the CIA took the lead in overthrowing Mossadegh and supporting a US-friendly monarch. > > Mohammad Reza Pahlavi overthrown in the 1979 Iranian revolution. Farah Pahlavi former Empress of IranThe CIA faced many setbacks, but the covert operation soon went into full swing, conducted from the US Embassy in Tehran under the leadership of Kermit Roosevelt, Jr. Iranians were hired to protest Mossadegh and fight pro-Mossadegh demonstrators. Anti- and pro-monarchy protestors violently clashed in the streets, leaving almost three hundred dead. The operation was successful in triggering a coup, and within days, pro-Shah tanks stormed the capital and bombarded the Prime Minister’s residence. Mossadegh surrendered, and was arrested on 19 August 1953. He was tried for treason, and sentenced to three years in prison. > > Mohammad Reza Pahlavi returned to power greatly strengthened and his rule became increasingly autocratic in the following years. With strong support from the US and UK, the Shah further modernized Iranian industry, but simultaneously crushed all forms of political opposition with his intelligence agency, SAVAK. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini became an active critic of the Shah’s White Revolution and publicly denounced the government. Khomeini, who was popular in religious circles, was arrested and imprisoned for 18 months. After his release in 1964, Khomeini publicly criticized the United States government. The Shah was persuaded to send him into exile by General Hassan Pakravan. Khomeini was sent first to Turkey and then to Iraq. While in exile, he continued to denounce the Shah. > > \ > > Starting in late 1977, protests began to build against the Shah and his autocratic, secular, pro-Western policies. By December 1978 millions of Iranians were in the streets and the country’s economy was paralyzed. The Shah left the country in mid-January 1979 and two weeks later the Revolution’s pre-eminent leader, Ayatollah Khomeini returned from exile to tumultuous, adoring crowds. The final collapse of the old regime came on February 11 when royal troops were defeated by guerillas and rebel troops in armed street fighting. Iran officially became an Islamic Republic on April 1 after Iranians overwhelmingly approved a national referendum declaring the country so. > > The 1979 revolution was populist, nationalist and most of all Shia Islamist. It reversed the Shah’s close political, social and cultural relationship with America and the West. Beyond that, Khomeini and his supporters worked to implement his vision of an Islamic state with sharia, or conservative Islamic laws, and clerical rule. Iran’s unique new theocratic constitution included the post of Supreme Leader for Khomeini and his successors, and other bodies of clerics to veto new laws and vet candidates for public office. > > Iran’s relations with the United States became deeply antagonistic following the revolution. On November 4, 1979, Iranian students seized US embassy personnel labeling the embassy a “den of spies”[29] and accused its personnel of being CIA agents plotting to overthrow the revolutionary government, as the CIA had done to Mohammad Mossadegh in 1953. Khomeini did not stop the students from holding embassy employees hostage and instead supported the embassy takeover.[citation needed]. Women, African Americans and one hostage diagnosed with multiple sclerosis were soon released, the remaining 52 were held for 444 days. The students demanded the handover of the shah in exchange for the hostages, and following the Shah’s death in the summer of 1980, that the hostages be put on trial for espionage. Subsequently attempts by the U.S. administration to negotiate or rescue the remaining hostages through such methods as Operation Eagle Claw, were unsuccessful until January 1981 when the Algiers declaration was agreed upon. The U.S. promised (among other things) in the accord to release Iranian assets that had been frozen, but as of 2007 those assets still remain frozen. > > Ayatollah Ruhollah Musavi Khomeini, leader of the Islamic revolution and founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran Meanwhile, Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein decided to take advantage of what he perceived to be disorder in the wake of the Iranian Revolution and its unpopularity with Western governments. The once-strong Iranian military had been disbanded during the revolution, and with the Shah ousted, Hussein had ambitions to position himself as the new strong man of the Middle East. He also sought to expand Iraq’s access to the Persian Gulf by acquiring territories that Iraq had claimed earlier from Iran during the Shah’s rule. Of chief importance to Iraq was Khuzestan which not only boasted a substantial Arab population, but rich oil fields as well. On the unilateral behalf of the United Arab Emirates, the islands of Abu Musa and the Greater and Lesser Tunbs became objectives as well. With these ambitions in mind, Hussein planned a full-scale assault on Iran, boasting that his forces could reach the capital within three days. On September 22, 1980 the Iraqi army invaded Iran at Khuzestan, precipitating the Iran-Iraq War known as Saddâm’s Qâdisiyyah in Iraq and the Imposed War in Iran. The attack took revolutionary Iran completely by surprise. > > Although Saddam Hussein’s forces made several early advances, by 1982, Iranian forces managed to push the Iraqi army back into Iraq. Khomeini refused a cease-fire from Iraq, demanding huge reparation payments, an end to Saddam’s rule, and that he be tried for crimes against humanity. Khomeini also sought to export his Islamic revolution westward into Iraq, especially on the majority Shi’a Arabs living in the country. The war then continued for six more years until 1988, when Khomeini, in his words, “drank the cup of poison” and accepted a truce mediated by the United Nations. > > Tens of thousands of Iranian civilians and military personnel were killed when Iraq used chemical weapons in its warfare. Iraq was financially backed by Egypt, the Arab countries of the Persian Gulf, the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact states, the United States (beginning in 1983), France, the United Kingdom, Germany, Brazil, and the People’s Republic of China (which also sold weapons to Iran). All of these countries provided intelligence, agents for chemical weapons as well as other forms of military assistance to Saddam Hussein. Iran’s principal allies during the war were Syria, Libya, and North Korea. > > With more than 100,000 Iranian victims[30] of Iraq’s chemical weapons during the eight-year war, Iran is the world’s second-most afflicted country by weapons of mass destruction, only to Japan. The total Iranian casualties of the war were estimated to be anywhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000. Almost all relevant international agencies have confirmed that Saddam engaged in chemical warfare to blunt Iranian human wave attacks, while unanimously announcing that Iran never used chemical weapons during the war. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/4 "2007-03-26T20:20:17Z")
I don’t know the ins and outs of all the Iranian claims, but Iran invaded Afghanistan several times in the mid-19th century (roughly 150 years ago) these power grabs eventually led to the British expelling Iran from Afghanistan in the Anglo-Persian War (1856-1857.) Iran has been fairly silent in terms of aggressive warfare for some time, but after the 18th century or so major world players like Russia and the British Empire were heavily colonizing the region, Iran was lucky to avoid outright annexation/reduction to a vassal state at several points with Russia, which probably explains why Iran was so limited in what sort of aggressive actions it could take. After the early 19th century, every direction from Iran was either Russian territory or a state loosely protected by the British Crown. ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2007, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/5 "2007-03-26T20:37:09Z")
The UK certainly invaded Iran in 1941, grabbed the oil and didn’t leave again until the '79 revolution. The first part is understandable (WW2), the second less so. Somewhere in the mid-50s the UK and USA combined to impose a regime (monarchy in this case) friendly to them and in particular ‘our’ oil related presence . . . the revolution ousted UK/USA influence and nationalised the oil industry. How times change. No idea about the UN delay but as Saddam was ‘our’ boy, armed and briefed, the USA/UK would be obliged to delay UN Resolutions in order to allow him to reap the benefit of his surprsie invasion, and secure the ambitions we desired. ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2007, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/6 "2007-03-26T20:48:15Z")
> [@](#): > > [Iran] has been the victim of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction in the last eight-year war. It has been very well documented that Saddam used both nerve and mustard gases against the numerically superior Iranian armed forces, and civilians for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2007, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/7 "2007-03-26T21:01:46Z")
[QUOTE=Honesty] The representative of Iran said some interesting things, that I just can’t believe are true. Here are some excerpts. Can anyone debunk them? [/QUOTE] Well, let’s look at this piece by piece: > [@](#): > > . . . Iran has not started a war in the last 200 years. As has been pointed out, Iran did invade Afghanistan in the 19th century. In fairness, “Afghanistan” at the time was not quite as firm a concept as it is today, and Persia/Iran’s position then - and presumably now - was that the border land they took was properly theirs anyway. So that argument can go either way. There is also the fact that Iran has contributed money and arms to terrorist organizations, especially in Lebanon, which many (including myself) would consider to be an act of war against target nations, most notably Israel. Iran does not recognize Israel as a legitimate state. However, it’s true Iran has not just up and invaded anyone recently. > [@](#): > > Iran has never had a role in crimes against humanity or genocide This is true in accordance with the internationally understood definitions of those terms. Iran has, of course, badly mistreated many of its own citizens but I don’t believe that rises to the definition of “genocide” that would apply under existing international treaties. In all fairness, while Iran is not a fantastic place to live, it’s a lot better than pretty much any of its neighbours. Gender equality is better, living conditions aren’t bad, they have elections that are free and open to a point, and everyone has the freedom to get stuck in Tehran traffic jams, universally regarded as some of the world’s worst. > [@](#): > > When Saddam Hussein invaded Iran 27 years ago, the Council waited seven days so that Iraq could occupy 30,000 kilometers of Iranian territory. Then it adopted resolution 479 (1980). That adopted a resolution and asked the two sides to stop hostilities, without asking the aggressor to withdraw. the specifics here are true. However, the implication of the “…so that Iraq…” part is that the Security Council acted as it did for the express purpose of allowing Iraq to take that land. There’s not really any reason to think that is the case, as opposed to just the Security Council not getting a resolution done right away. > [@](#): > > In the course of the war [with Iran], the United States joined the United Kingdom, Germany, France, and the Soviet Union . . in providing Saddam with military hardware, intelligence, and material for chemical and biological weapons. This of course is true. Just ask [Donald Rumsfeld.](http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/) > [@](#): > > [Iran] has been the victim of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction in the last eight-year war. Iran was attacked with chemical weapons, by Iraq, though to limited effect, so this is also true. “Terrorism” I’m not so sure about, depending how you define that word. > [@](#): > > When the Iranian people nationalized their oil industry, they [the UNSC] attempted to impose a resolution . . . condemning Iran for threatening peace and security. This is also true. Iran, under Mohammed Mossadeq, nationalized the entire oil industry in 1951 and was fiercely opposed by the West, who of course stood to lose money on the deal. > [@](#): > > The [IAEA] confirmed in 2003, and has mainained since then, that to date, there is no evidence that previously nuclear material and activities were related to a nuclear weapons programme So far as I can tell this is also true. The concern with Iran is that while they \*say \* they don’t plan on building the bomb, they’re not willing to abide by all the requirements of the non-proliferation treaty, thus raising suspicion. So which is it? Is Iran a rogue nation? Or is it a victim the Western hatred? If its the latter, what is so darned special about Iran? If Iran hasn’t started a war in 200 years, then why would the United States give Saddam weapons to launch a war against them? - Honesty [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/8 "2007-03-27T03:05:22Z")
Well, it’s a selective selection of truths. He leaves out that Iran has supported militants in other countries for a while, & that in the revolution the victors slaughtered & terrorized their political rivals (of course, that’s “internal”). But to be fair, Iran’s biggest “crime” in the international arena has been challenging Anglo-American hegemony. That’s the real reason they get flack. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/9 "2007-03-27T03:36:15Z")
Any country can put together a list of things they have or haven’t done that can make them look swell. A more balanced picture would include the bad with the good, but the bad is completely absent from that list. In other words, it’s pure propaganda. The bad things Iran has done do not involve genocide, that’s true. It’s also true that Saddam attacked Iran and they suffered greatly in that war. It’s also true that there are terrorist attacks against the regime inside Iran. However, what’s conspicuously absent from the list is the thing we worry about the most with respect to Iran - their exporting of terrorism. Hezbollah is largely an Iranian proxy army, and they are responsible for many terrorist attacks, including the attack o the Marine barracks in Beirut that killed 241 Americans. Iran is also implicated in the Khobar Towers attack which killed 19 Americans. The U.S. State Department says that Iran is the most active state sponsor of terrorism in the world, and I believe that to be true. Much of their focus has been terrorism aimed at Israel (Iran funds not just Hezbollah, but Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad). What has really elevated Iran in terms of its being a threat to world peace has to do with the rise of Islamic terrorism out of the Middle East and into Europe, Asia, and the United States. When Iran was primarily focused on opposing Israel and controlling the wheels of power in Lebanon a lot of people could look the other way. But Islamic terrorism is becoming increasingly interconnected and Iran is now adopting the role as a spiritual and financial epicenter of the movement. That coupled with the rise of an apocalypic Islamic sect to Iranian leadership and Iran’s frantic race to build nuclear weapons is what really has the world’s attention. None of this has to do with any of the bullet items in the propaganda list, which is of course the whole purpose of such a list - to lie through omission, like when a crooked politician tries to make himself sympathetic by showing he’s a good family man who gives to charity and is kind to puppies. It may be true, but it’s rather beside the point. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/10 "2007-03-27T03:54:48Z")
Um, yeah, what Sam said. I still think that if they were funding “our” terrorists (they helped fund the _Contras_ in Nicaragua, remember) against states the UK & USA despise, they’d be let slide a bit more. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/11 "2007-03-27T05:45:45Z")
[QUOTE=Honesty] … If Iran hasn’t started a war in 200 years, then why would the United States give Saddam weapons to launch a war against them? [/QUOTE] The US didn’t give Saddam weapons to launch a war against Iran. But late in the war, when it looked like Iran was going to whup Saddam’s butt and spread Komeini’s particulare brand of fanaticism across the Mideast, not only the US but a variety of countries who thought this was a Very Bad Idea™ gave Saddam a variety of weapons. Realpolitik is a bitch … w. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/12 "2007-03-27T10:22:56Z")
[QUOTE=intention] The US didn’t give Saddam weapons to launch a war against Iran. But late in the war, when it looked like Iran was going to whup Saddam’s butt and spread Komeini’s particulare brand of fanaticism across the Mideast, not only the US but a variety of countries who thought this was a Very Bad Idea™ gave Saddam a variety of weapons. Realpolitik is a bitch … w. [/QUOTE] The USA also gave massive agricultural credits to enable Iraq to fund arms purchases with the money it now had to spend on other things. There can be little doubt that Iran has a long list of totally justified grievances against the West, up to and including the ongoing kidnapping of their nationals. I don’t think that justifies their own tit for tat actions or, IF they are seeking nukes, going nuclear. However with the lesson on their border of what happens to Axix of Evil countries without nukes I can appreciate their reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/13 "2007-03-27T11:24:21Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] The USA also gave massive agricultural credits to enable Iraq to fund arms purchases with the money it now had to spend on other things. There can be little doubt that Iran has a long list of totally justified grievances against the West, up to and including the ongoing kidnapping of their nationals. I don’t think that justifies their own tit for tat actions or, IF they are seeking nukes, going nuclear. However with the lesson on their border of what happens to Axix of Evil countries without nukes I can appreciate their reasoning. [/QUOTE] **Tagos** - Don’t forget \*\*\*Sam’s \* \*\* list of valid grievances of the West against Iran - it does go both ways, even if the West kicked the whole cycle off. Iran does support and export terrorism. They do use their terrorist proxies to attack and attempt to destabilize other countries (including Iraq, Israel, and Saudi) in order to promulgate their Shi’a and Islamist philosophy. I won’t get into the whole nuclear thing or justifying US actions against them, firstly because I think the US administration has been pretty dumb in policy and public statements with regards to Iran but also because I think you might have a bone to pick against the US in general and I won’t get dragged into that particular rat-hole. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/14 "2007-03-27T14:25:24Z")
[QUOTE=GomiBoy] **Tagos** - Don’t forget \*\*\*Sam’s \* \*\* list of valid grievances of the West against Iran - it does go both ways, even if the West kicked the whole cycle off. Iran does support and export terrorism. They do use their terrorist proxies to attack and attempt to destabilize other countries (including Iraq, Israel, and Saudi) in order to promulgate their Shi’a and Islamist philosophy. I won’t get into the whole nuclear thing or justifying US actions against them, firstly because I think the US administration has been pretty dumb in policy and public statements with regards to Iran but also because I think you might have a bone to pick against the US in general and I won’t get dragged into that particular rat-hole. [/QUOTE] I’ve seen precious little evidence that they export terrorism, just allegations. They don’t see Hizbollah and Hamas as terrorists, but nationalists defending their homelands against a western sponsored aggressor who invaded and occupied their territories. And we are today arming and training terrorists in Iran and flying drones in their airspace. We overthrew a democratic govt and imposed a murderous tyrant on them. After that we used Saddam as our attack dog, causung millions of deaths and that pretty much trumps everything. Maybe we should just try minding our own friggin’ business for a change. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/15 "2007-03-27T14:44:46Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] I’ve seen precious little evidence that they export terrorism, just allegations. They don’t see Hizbollah and Hamas as terrorists, but nationalists defending their homelands against a western sponsored aggressor who invaded and occupied their territories. And we are today arming and training terrorists in Iran and flying drones in their airspace. [/quote] Read here about Iran sponsoring terrorism: [link](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/833900.html) [Link](http://www.geeskaafrika.com/ethiopia_10mar07.htm) [link](http://mwcnews.net/content/view/13032&Itemid=1) [link](http://www.meforum.org/article/619) Of course if you think Hamas and Hizbollah, not to mention Iraqi “insurgents” targeting civilians of different faith and cutting off heads of infidels, are freedom fighters, then I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree. [QUOTE=tagos] Maybe we should just try minding our own friggin’ business for a change. [/QUOTE] And, just by the bye, let one of the only true Democracies in the ME get destroyed and have all of it’s citizens killed. That is after all the stated goal of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran with regards to Israel. Minding our own business is no longer an option, because they won’t let us. They won’t let us withdraw, they would take the war to us. They’ve done so before. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/16 "2007-03-27T14:46:55Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] And we are today arming and training terrorists in Iran and flying drones in their airspace. [/QUOTE] Cite please? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/17 "2007-03-27T15:15:29Z")
[QUOTE=GomiBoy] Cite please? [/QUOTE] Read the news. If you want to participate in a debate it’s up to you to know the basic facts. Try the MEK for starters and then follow up with the downed drones in Iran. i’ve cited the relevant articles repeatedly in these debates. Hell, I’m sick to death of people who feel they can spout off without having made any effort to keep apprised of the basic facts. > [@](#): > > In 2006 news reports linked the PMOI with US threats to attack Iran, specifically use of the PMOI to “prepare the battlefield” for US military action against Iran.[36] > > According to the news organisation Rawstory, an intelligence official said that following the invasion of Iraq, “We [the US] disarmed [the MEK] of major weapons, but not small arms. US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was pushing to use them as a military special ops team, but there was infighting between Rumsfeld’s camp and then National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, but she was able to fight them off for a while”. > > According to another intelligence source, the policy infighting ended last year when Rumsfeld, under pressure from US Vice President Dick Cheney, came up with a plan to “convert” the MEK by having them simply quit their organization." “These guys are nuts,” the intelligence source said. "Stephen Cambone [[[Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence]] ] and those guys made MEK members swear an oath to democracy and resign from the MEK and then our guys incorporated them into their unit and trained them” for action in Iran. A UN source close to the United Nations Security Council, again according to Rawstory, said in April 2006 that “the clandestine war had been going on for roughly a year”.[36] > Wikinews has news related to: > Kucinich asks Bush about alleged US support for armed insurgency in Iran > > According to a former Iranian ambassador and an intelligence correspondent of the UPI news agency, “The Iranian accusations are true, but it is being done on such a small scale - a series of pinpricks - it would seem to have no strategic value at all.”[37] Quote from the wiki article. Feel free to follow up the references. > [@](#): > > Iran’s intelligence chief on Wednesday accused the United States of flying spy drones over its nuclear sites and threatened to shoot down the unmanned surveillance crafts. > > Intelligence Minister Ali Yunesi comments backed a report in The Washington Post on Sunday that quoted unnamed U.S. officials as saying the drones have been flying over Iran for nearly a year to seek evidence of nuclear weapons programs. [From CBS](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/29/world/main646227.shtml) And while we are here: [Why the sky is blue](http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/sky_blue.html) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/18 "2007-03-27T15:16:41Z")
[QUOTE=GomiBoy] Read here about Iran sponsoring terrorism: [link](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/833900.html) [Link](http://www.geeskaafrika.com/ethiopia_10mar07.htm) [link](http://mwcnews.net/content/view/13032&Itemid=1) [link](http://www.meforum.org/article/619) And, just by the bye, let one of the only true Democracies in the ME get destroyed and have all of it’s citizens killed. [/QUOTE] Hyperbolic bullshit. Israel’s existence is not in any danger. We are the people with a track record of opposing democracy in the Middle East and propping up tyrants. A policy we continue to this day. There is no evidence in your first two links about supporting terrorism, just funding for Hamas, which is the democratically elected government. Given that track record I didn’t bother with the rest. Your problem is that you can only see the world through western eyes. It’s all black and white. I think Hamas carries out terrorist acts and I think the Isreali government is an oppressive occupier who regularly engages in acts of state terrorism. Both sides should cut the shit out and when we stop supporting terrorists in Iran and cheering on Israeli aggression with the arms we provide them then I’ll join you on your high horse. As it is you want one side to just surrender. We (West & Israel) invade, we arm terrorists, we occupy Lebanon for years, we colonise Palestine, we imprison without trial and torture, we kill Palestinians by the truck load, yet somehow it’s Iran that has to unilaterally bow to our wishes. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/19 "2007-03-27T15:24:35Z")
[QUOTE=GomiBoy] Cite please? [/QUOTE] [Iraq Intensifies Efforts to Expel Iranian Group Though Labeled Terrorist, MEK Has Updated U.S. on Tehran’s Nuclear Program](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/13/AR2007031301782_pf.html) > [@](#): > > BAGHDAD – For three years, thousands of members of a militant group dedicated to overthrowing Iran’s theocracy have lived in a sprawling compound north of Baghdad under the protection of the U.S. military. > > American soldiers chauffeur top leaders of the group, known as the Mujaheddin-e Khalq, or MEK, to and from their compound, where they have hosted dozens of visitors in an energetic campaign to persuade the State Department to stop designating the group as a terrorist organization. > > Now the Iraqi government is intensifying its efforts to evict the 3,800 or so members of the group who live in Iraq, although U.S. officials say they are in no hurry to change their policy toward the MEK, which has been a prime source of information about Iran’s nuclear program. > > The Iraqi government announced this week that roughly 100 members would face prosecution for human rights violations, a move MEK officials contend comes at the request of the Iranian government. > > “We have documents, witnesses,” Jaafar al-Moussawi, a top Iraqi prosecutor, said Monday, alleging that the MEK aided President Saddam Hussein’s campaign to crush Shiite and Kurdish opposition movements at the end of the 1991 Persian Gulf War. Moussawi said the criminal complaint would implicate MEK members in “killing, torture, [wrongful] imprisonment and displacement.” Plenty more where that came from. Unless you want to do your own research. Just type “MEK + terrorism + USA” into Google. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591/20 "2007-03-27T15:28:27Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] But Islamic terrorism is becoming increasingly interconnected and Iran is now adopting the role as a spiritual and financial epicenter of the movement. [/QUOTE] Cites for that? Or are you just parroting a right-wing-US-and-Israeli talking point? Because what I see is you conflating Sunni terrorist activities (_al Qaeda_) with Iran’s Shi’a regime. As you certainly know, “radical Islam” is not a monolithic entity, and foreign policy is more complicated than “us” versus some cartoonishly demonized “them.” Also, if anything, it is my understanding that Islamic terrorism is becoming _less_ centralized, and more a product of independent groups and individuals. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-whoa-is-this-true/397591.md?page=2)