# (Iranian) attempts to assassainate ambassadors **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262 "2012-02-18T18:29:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/41 "2012-02-18T20:45:33Z")
Oh good, and now Jackmannii and FinnAgain play good cop/bad cop. Always convincing. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/42 "2012-02-18T20:46:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Cite the appropriate manual on international law where it states that consular agents are legitimate targets. Or retract. I’m not retracting any damn thing. You really think war should be conducted according to Miss Manners’ Rules of Wartime Etiquette? Wow. Next you’ll want Star Trek disintegration booths. So clean and tidy. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/43 "2012-02-18T20:47:16Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I’m against conducting war missions in other people’s countries, if they’re not involved. If those other countries are hosting legitimate military targets, then they are involved. For example, if the US were at war with Country X, and Country X attacks the US military base in Bahrain, I don’t see any special problem with it and I doubt you would either. Your own hypothesis is that diplomats are legitimate military targets, so by your hypothesis, why should diplomats be treated any differently? Ahhh, but you probably think diplomats are different. When a country accepts diplomats from Country X, it’s completely different from hosting a military base of Country X. We want countries to receive diplomats without fear that they are entangling themselves with other countries. We don’t want diplomatic personnel from two warring countries to get in a gun battle in the streets of a third country. And I would agree with all of that. Which is why diplomats should not be seen as legitimate military targets. > [@](#): > > I think in the case of Iran, aren’t they basically “at war” with anyone friends with the US, Europe, The West, Israel, etc? I can sort of see Iran considering Thailand to be guilty by association or something. Israel could take the same view of countries associated with Iran and engage in the same rationalization. Israel could easily send a few F-16s to Damascus and reduce the Iranian embassy to a heap of smoldering ruin. And they could park a truck bomb in front of the Iranian embassy in Azerbaijhan. > [@](#): > > As far as the nuke stuff though, as long as the US, UK, France, Israel etc. still push nuclear energy/weaponry, I can’t blame anyone, or everyone else for pursuing it. I would say it’s not a matter of blame so much as pragmatics. A nuclear-armed Iran is bad news. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/44 "2012-02-18T20:51:28Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I’m not retracting any damn thing. I have provided citations and proof of the fact that civilians involved in military projects are legitimate targets of war. You have not and now refuse to provide citations or proof that consular agents are legitimate targets of war, and you refuse to retract your claim despite lack of supporting proof and presence of counter evidence. So noted. > [@treis](#): > > No, of course not. This is different because it’s Da Jooz being killed. So noted, you have no actual answer to the logical inconsistency in your position (or you actually have no inconsistency and do support civilian-targeted military actions) and will only respond with nonsense about “Da Jooz”. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/45 "2012-02-18T20:56:40Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t think there are black and white rules. It depends on the justification for the war and how horrendous the acts are. If you can’t even lay out what you think the rules ought to be, your claim about the morality of Israel’s actions is not very credible. Basically you are saying that what Israel (allegedly) did is just as bad as what Iran (allegedly) did but you refuse to say why. > [@](#): > > I’d prefer they not blow up part of my country. I take it you are not from Thailand then? Because it seems to me that an Iranian bomb exploding in Bangkok is just as reprehensible as an Israeli bomb in New York. > [@](#): > > Let me ask you, are the Iranians justified in attacking workers and facilities in the U.S. providing weapons to Israel? Yes, of course. (Assuming for the sake of discussion that they have justification at all for going to war against Israel.) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/46 "2012-02-18T20:57:41Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > This is oversimplified to the point of factual error. It does indeed "matter what they’re working on " > Citizens working on military projects are valid military targets according to the [Fourth Geneva Convention](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/full/380). Your cite does not say what you say it says. In fact it has nothing to do with military targets whatsoever. > [@](#): > > Likewise, removing the capability for wage nuclear war obviously falls under [Protocol 1, Article 52](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/full/470?opendocument): Likewise. People are not objects. ETA: not that the Geneva Convention applies since _there is no war between Iran and Israel_. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/47 "2012-02-18T21:04:08Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > If you can’t even lay out what you think the rules ought to be, your claim about the morality of Israel’s actions is not very credible. Basically you are saying that what Israel (allegedly) did is just as bad as what Iran (allegedly) did but you refuse to say why. I think they’re both fair game. > [@brazil84](#): > > I take it you are not from Thailand then? Because it seems to me that an Iranian bomb exploding in Bangkok is just as reprehensible as an Israeli bomb in New York. If I were Thai, I’d be pissed that Iran conducted an operation in my country. I wouldn’t really care that the target was a diplomat. > [@brazil84](#): > > Yes, of course. (Assuming for the sake of discussion that they have justification at all for going to war against Israel.) Ok, I suppose I just don’t see why diplomats should be off limits from a moral perspective. ---
**Author:** ![BordelDeMerde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BordelDeMerde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BordelDeMerde)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/48 "2012-02-18T21:09:05Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Is that because Israel is bad? Or is it because the UN has a lot of member states which hate Israel? When Israel is consistently sanctioned with vote totals like 97-4 (where Israel, the US, and island nations like Nauru are the only countries vetoing), I’d rely on Occam’s Razor to guide you to the answer. There is an old Yiddish saying: “If one person calls you a donkey, ignore him; if two [or 97?] people call you a donkey, buy a saddle.” ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/49 "2012-02-18T21:16:22Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Readers will note that you have provided absolutely zero evidence that the assassination plot was “fabricated”. They will also note that you have provided nothing but a link and have provided zero quotation or analysis, at all. Readers will also note that j[ust recently](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14776468&postcount=467) you also linked to a cite claiming that the substantiated Iranian assassination attempts were likewise ‘full of holes’ and were likely a “false flag” operation. Readers would be wise to note that your metric for determining “holes” in a story and its correlation with the factuality of the story is perhaps not totally reliable… Presumably the same “readers” will note that you’ve not provided a single cite in your OP that makes for a case-closed imputation vs Iran. By the same token said readers would, by now, be savvy to your rabid defense on any matter regarding Israel. Point being, the case against Iran in that particular case was not just unproven, but made laughable by the lack of evidence behind the charges. Once more I am providing _yet another_ cite full of details to back my assertions: [**Debunking the Iran “Terror Plot”**](http://www.merip.org/mero/mero110311) That said, it is not up to me, ‘the writer’ to do the reading either for you nor anyone else here. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/50 "2012-02-18T21:19:47Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I think they’re both fair game. I understand that – but what about a hypothetical Israeli attack on Iranian diplomats? If blowing stuff up is a problem for you, let’s assume that Mossad agents storm the Iranian UN mission and shoot everyone there dead. Just as immoral as the other conduct we’ve discussed? > [@](#): > > If I were Thai, I’d be pissed that Iran conducted an operation in my country. I wouldn’t really care that the target was a diplomat. But what about the morality involved? Do you think it would be just as immoral for Israel to blow up a couple Iranian embassies as it would be for Iran to assassinate an Israeli weapons scientist? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/51 "2012-02-18T21:22:20Z")
> [@BordelDeMerde](#): > > When Israel is consistently sanctioned with vote totals like 97-4 (where Israel, the US, and island nations like Nauru are the only countries vetoing), I’d rely on Occam’s Razor to guide you to the answer. Given the additional facts that countries like Syria, Iran, and Lebanon engage in some serious human rights abuses (far worse than anything Israel has been accused of), the simplest explanation is politics. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/52 "2012-02-18T21:26:13Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Given the additional facts that countries like Syria, Iran, and Lebanon engage in some serious human rights abuses (far worse than anything Israel has been accused of), the simplest explanation is politics. Really? If I give you those three, how would you explain the other +/- 90 nations that oppose Israel’s politics? ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/53 "2012-02-18T21:38:12Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Why hasn’t Israel done so? Obviously it’s because Israel’s main goal is to blunt Iranian military capability. By contrast, Iran is simply trying to cause harm, destruction, and terror to its enemies. Given that Israel’s technique for blunting Iran’s military capability is to cause harm, destruction, and terror to its enemies, I am having trouble seeing the “contrast.” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/54 "2012-02-18T21:49:45Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Given that Israel’s technique for blunting Iran’s military capability is to cause harm, destruction, and terror to its enemies, I am having trouble seeing the “contrast.” Probably the reason you are having trouble is your mistaken assumption about Israel’s intentions. But let me ask you this: 1. Do you agree that it would be at least as easy for Israel to assassinate Iranian diplomats outside of Iran as to assassinate Iranian nuclear scientists within Iran? 2. Do you agree that it would be very easy for Israel to blow up Iranian embassies? 3. Do you agree that it would be easier for Israel to assassinate large numbers of random civilians within Iran than to pick off particular nuclear scientists (who are being watched and guarded carefully)? 4. If so, and if Israel’s goal is simply to cause harm, destruction, and terror, why hasn’t Israel done these things? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/55 "2012-02-18T21:53:00Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Presumably the same “readers” will note that you’ve not provided a single cite in your OP that makes for a case-closed imputation vs Iran. Alternatively, they may have actually read the OP and its citations and noted that such proof was provided and quoted. [QUOTE=RedFury;14788223 [**Debunking the Iran “Terror Plot”**] ([http://www.merip.org/mero/mero110311](http://www.merip.org/mero/mero110311)) [/QUOTE] Readers will note that you have yet again provided a link with zero quotes or analysis. Readers will also note that your cite does not prove what you claim it does, which may be the reason you have only provided a fetch-quest and have not actually done the work of holding up your side in a debate. Readers will also note that your author is not a poster on the Straight Dope and that in Great Debates of all places, one is expected to actually debate. Readers may further note that providing a 5000+ word article and refusing to quote, discuss or analyze\* a single particular \*contained therein strongly suggests that the person providing it is unable to support it. Further, readers may note that your author, Gareth Porter, is the same Gareth Porter who claimed that the Khmer Rouge was not, in fact, eliminating classes of people. Of course as he is not here, and you are providing this work, it falls to you to defend it should you be providing it as a citation. Are you able to do so? > [@Kobal2](#): > > Your cite does not say what you say it says. In fact it has nothing to do with military targets whatsoever. Not only does exactly it say exactly what I said it did, you are ignoring that civilians lose their protection if they are engaged in military work. You can not simply handwave away cites you not like. The citation about objects proves that one can indeed attack targets if they have military use. Your parsing is also spurious, as the allowance is not to attack targets _so long as one does not harm the inhabitants of said targets._ And yes the Geneva Convention applies. Even if we were to ignore your claim that no war is involved, if a nation were to _start_ a war their actions would be governed by the GC. Further, of course there’s a state of war given that Iran has repeatedly attacked Israel through Hezbollah and Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/56 "2012-02-18T21:53:51Z")
> [@](#): > > …why hasn’t Israel done these things? Not assuming that your analogy is factual, but a reason could easily be a desire to retain victim status. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/57 "2012-02-18T21:54:26Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I understand that – but what about a hypothetical Israeli attack on Iranian diplomats? If blowing stuff up is a problem for you, let’s assume that Mossad agents storm the Iranian UN mission and shoot everyone there dead. Just as immoral as the other conduct we’ve discussed? That runs into the same problem. You can’t conduct war and/or commit crimes in a country without it getting pissed off. More broadly, I’d say there is a duty to limit yourself to military targets if you can achieve your aims that way. > [@brazil84](#): > > But what about the morality involved? Do you think it would be just as immoral for Israel to blow up a couple Iranian embassies as it would be for Iran to assassinate an Israeli weapons scientist? Assuming that Israel’s war to stop Iran from getting nukes is just, then yes, if their best option for success was to blow up a bunch of embassies, then they are justified in doing so. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/58 "2012-02-18T21:56:27Z")
If only we could learn to much as much creative energy into avoiding war as we put into justifying it. There might yet be some hope. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/59 "2012-02-18T21:58:09Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Assuming that Israel’s war to stop Iran from getting nukes is just, then yes, if their best option for success was to blow up a bunch of embassies, then they are justified in doing so. Identify the manual of international law which states that one may engage in deliberate targeting of civilians if it is their “best option” for war. Further, identify how blowing up civilians hundreds or thousands of miles away from military research and development targets aids in stopping military research and development. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/60 "2012-02-18T22:04:12Z")
I think I’m with **brazil84** on this one. Civilian scientists, when working hand-in-hand with the military, should be targeted because they are basically military by proxy. Diplomats on the other hand should be _totally_ off limits because they can bring about the peaceful means to end ongoing conflict. Killing diplomats says that you have no intention of seeking a peaceful solution, and it endangers your own diplomats assigned to other countries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262.md?page=4)