# (Iranian) attempts to assassainate ambassadors **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262 "2012-02-18T18:29:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/101 "2012-02-19T02:12:04Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well gosh darn, that’s a staggeringly meaningful distinction ! It undermines everything I was saying Yes, it does. A military application is an application that’s military. Something of a military character can have military dimensions as well as civilian. > [@Kobal2](#): > > As such, the bombing of Iranian scientists cannot constitute a lawful military operation by Israel, which you seemed very determined to assert. No, that too is not true. I actually pointed out that the “Israeli using MEK to kill Iranian scientists” is an unverified claim made anonymous officials and thus has no credibility. I pointed that out right at the beginning of the thread. Even if I had not already done so, using non-legal forces to kill valid targets does not make them invalid targets. It makes the means you used to kill valid targets, invalid. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/102 "2012-02-19T02:19:40Z")
Out of curiosity here, is anyone in this thread contending that the Iranians didn’t attempt these assassinations? I see a lot of handwaving going on, and lots of excuses and attempts to do the ole ‘well, Israel does it, so Iran should to’ thingy, but is anyone going on record stating categorically that Iran didn’t attempt the deed? Or are we just pushing on into excuse territory at this point and just going with the evidence that the crazy bastards did in fact try this incredibly stupid stunt? If it wasn’t the Iranians, what’s the thinking here? That Israel tried the ‘false flag’ thing, or that someone else is trying to set up the Iranians…or that aliens or mutant kittens tried it for their own inscrutable reasons? Are the Thia’s in on it as well, or just dupes? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/103 "2012-02-19T02:25:39Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I actually pointed out that the “Israeli using MEK to kill Iranian scientists” is an unverified claim made anonymous officials and thus has no credibility. NBC News, [which made the report](http://rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/08/10354553-israel-teams-with-terror-group-to-kill-irans-nuclear-scientists-us-officials-tell-nbc-news), certainly seems to have trusted its sources. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/104 "2012-02-19T02:28:32Z")
Yet again, do you accept all anonymous, unsourced, unverified claims that US officials make, or only this one? Why or why not? Even if it had the credibility it lacks, rather obviously the use of tu quoque fallacies is fallacious. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/105 "2012-02-19T02:49:33Z")
> [@](#): > > …a nation cannot “ignore” the NPT if it is not bound by it in the first place… > [@](#): > > …rather obviously the use of tu quoque fallacies is fallacious… I am a fan of rationalist verbal gymnastics. These are beauts. Definitely going in the Greatest Hits collection. Maybe Vol. 3. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/106 "2012-02-19T02:54:29Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, that too is not true. > I actually pointed out that the “Israeli using MEK to kill Iranian scientists” is an unverified claim made anonymous officials and thus has no credibility. Why shouldn’t we trust US officials in this specific matter ? If anything, I’d expect US officials to be the first to deny or attempt to obfuscate any such connection. What’d be the US’s angle in attempting to spread disinformation in Israel’s disfavour ? > [@](#): > > I pointed that out right at the beginning of the thread. Even if I had not already done so, using non-legal forces to kill valid targets does not make them invalid targets. That is not what I’m arguing. > [@](#): > > It makes the means you used to kill valid targets, invalid. But this is, or at least the start of what I’m arguing. So, assuming the MEK connection is true for the purpose of argument, would you classify Israel-using-MEK-to-bomb-the-shit-out-of-Iranian-personnel as a lawful military action ? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/107 "2012-02-19T02:54:37Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yet again, do you accept all anonymous, unsourced, unverified claims that US officials make, or only this one? Why or why not? Because I trust NBC News, which reported this story, and which is in a better position than you or I to evaluate the credibility of its sources. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Even if it had the credibility it lacks, rather obviously the use of tu quoque fallacies is fallacious. Pointing out the hypocrisy of Israel’s _outrage_ (and that of its supporters here) is not fallacious. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/108 "2012-02-19T02:56:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > rationalist verbal gymnastics One cannot ignore a treaty they are not party to, Lucy. This is basic. One can only ignore the requirements of a treaty which they are bound to comply with. Otherwise they are simply not applicable. Are you ignoring the requirements of your annual pap smear? One would assume no, but perhaps that’s “rationalist verbal gymnastics” and you should get to an OBGYN? As for claiming that it somehow evinced “rhetorical gymnastics” to state that a fallacy is fallacious, ah well. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/109 "2012-02-19T02:57:35Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The point is that your distinction between countries which are “involved” or not doesn’t make any sense. > > If you start from the assumption that a diplomat is a potentially legitimate military target, it follows that a diplomat is a legitimate military target wherever he may happen to be. In the same way, a military base or an arms shipment is a legitimate military target wherever it may happen to be. > > By your reasoning, allowing a foreign country to establish a military base on your soil is essentially the same as allowing a foreign country to establish an embassy on your soil. Okay. What’s the problem? If I’m at war with country A and don’t give a crap about country B, and country B has country A’s embassy and military in it, they’re targets. That’s just my opinion though. I’m not saying that’s proscribed in an international treaty. The OP assumes this is expressly forbidden somewhere like Art. IV of the GC. It isn’t. I would like to see where it is expressly forbidden. Haven’t seen a cite yet other than “everyone knows that!” like the Earth is round or something. Anyway, what constitutes a legitimate target is different than how you classify someone you’ve captured. > [@](#): > > Well you can’t have it both ways. If diplomats are legitimate military targets, then it’s just as legitimate for Israel to bomb an Iranian military base as it is for Israel to blow up Iran’s embassies in Bucharest and New York. Sure, why not? I wouldn’t recommend the New York thing without clearing it with Washington first, though. > [@](#): > > Fine, and I will assume that you would regard an Israeli attack on an Iranian embassy as being at least as proper as an Iranian attack on an Israeli diplomat. I guess so. Personally I’d rather they played nice together. > [@](#): > > I do too. So what? So if you and I can see Iran developing nuclear energy for peaceful purposes, then we might think twice about assassinating their scientists, which would result in their attacking our embassies in other countries. Of course I’m not so naive to think they won’t eventually weaponize their nuclear technology. Most countries do. That’s not an excuse to assassinate their scientists now. > [@](#): > > Well that’s a different issue. Probably there’s no way for you or I to really know how close Iran is to developing nuclear weapons. I do tend to trust Israel on this point. I’m not sure the US and Israel are the most credible witnesses when Iran is our mutual hated enemy and we just got done occupying Iraq based on made-up nuclear fear-mongering. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/110 "2012-02-19T03:09:17Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > One cannot ignore a treaty they are not party to, Lucy. This is basic. One can only ignore the requirements of a treaty which they are bound to comply with. Otherwise they are simply not applicable. Are you ignoring the requirements of your annual pap smear? One would assume no, but perhaps that’s “rationalist verbal gymnastics” and you should get to an OBGYN?.. Oh, Finny, you can be _such_ a little bitch, sometimes! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/111 "2012-02-19T03:13:02Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Why shouldn’t we trust US officials in this specific matter ? That is the fallacy of shifting the burden of proof. Besides, did you read the article? Two dudes said it’s the case, one said that in reality it’s not confirmed. Hardly a compelling argument even if your standard is that we should accept anonymous claims provided without proof. Further, why assume that this is “the US”? We have two unnamed officials speaking out on their own. Maybe they’ve got an axe to grind. Maybe the Saudis, the French (etc…) were behind the bombings, and the political calculation was made that accusing Israel would hurt them much, and would take heat off of other nations. Maybe the US itself is involved and that’s part of why there’s a faction trying to get MEK off the list of terrorist organizations. Maybe they’re of only average intellect and read some briefings and decided to ignore caveats while the third guy the reporter spoke to said “well, there’s no confirmation of that but we’re kicking around the idea”. Who knows? The fact is we have an anonymous report, gainsaid but one respondent in the inquiry anyways, that is immaterial to whether or not assassinating consular personnel is a good thing. Even during all out war, consular agents are sacrosanct. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/112 "2012-02-19T03:22:45Z")
Gah. Typos, migraine… Gainsaid by one respondent, wouldn’t do much damage to Israel more damage to other countries if implicated. Probably others. Blargh. Wonder if the thread will be locked when I check in tomorrow… ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/113 "2012-02-19T03:25:04Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Pointing out the hypocrisy of Israel’s _outrage_ (and that of its supporters here) is not fallacious. True, but there are vastly better examples of hypocrisy than Israel’s Moe Berging of Iran’s nuclear scientists. Why not bring up the affair of Khalid’s ear? Isn’t that a far better example? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/114 "2012-02-19T03:38:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > True, but there are vastly better examples of hypocrisy than Israel’s Moe Berging of Iran’s nuclear scientists. > > Why not bring up the affair of Khalid’s ear? > > Isn’t that a far better example? I think maybe your reference may be so vague as to be lost on most. Had to Google it myself. But here you go: [Mossad assassination attempt on Khaled Mashal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Mashal#Assassination_attempt): > [@](#): > > On September 25, 1997, Mashal was the target of an assassination attempt carried out by the Israeli Mossad under orders from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his security cabinet. > > The Mossad agents waited at the entrance of the Hamas offices in Amman, with the intention of assassinating Khalid Mashal. At the time of the assassination attempt Mashal was considered Hamas’ Jordanian branch chief. Two Mossad agents carrying Canadian passports entered Jordan, where Mashal was living. As Mashal walked into his office, one of the agents came up from behind and held a device to Mashal’s left ear that transmitted a lethal nerve toxin, levofentanyl. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/115 "2012-02-19T03:47:00Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Out of curiosity here, is anyone in this thread contending that the Iranians didn’t attempt these assassinations? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14789060&postcount=57](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14789060&postcount=57) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/116 "2012-02-19T03:59:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The fact is we have an anonymous report, gainsaid by one respondent in the inquiry anyways Unless one carries a fancy badge from a three letter agency, does proof ever get better than this when it comes to skunkworks ? Unless the skunkworkers are [really not very good at it](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior), of course 😛 To clarify, I’m not vehemently insisting Israel did it and furthermore that it did it with MEK or anything of the sort. But ISTM that dismissing this particular story on the grounds that “it’s from a couple anonymous sources” would amount to also rejecting every last glimpse of information we ever get on what’s going on in the intelligence underworld, barring declassified documents decades after the fact. ETA: also, saying it’s “not confirmed” is not gainsaying. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/117 "2012-02-19T04:06:06Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I think maybe your reference may be so vague as to be lost on most. Had to Google it myself. But here you go: > > [Mossad assassination attempt on Khaled Mashal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Mashal#Assassination_attempt): Yes, I think the attempted assassination of Hamas’ diplomatic mission in Jordan was a vastly better example of hypocrisy than knocking off some Iranian scientists. Ironically enough, Israel’s failed assassination made him so popular that he rose through the ranks to become the head. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/118 "2012-02-19T04:50:42Z")
[QUOTE=Spoke] Because I trust NBC News, which reported this story, and which is in a better position than you or I to evaluate the credibility of its sources. [/QUOTE] Seriously? Do you trust them in all things, or merely this one time? [QUOTE=Kobal2] Why shouldn’t we trust US officials in this specific matter ? If anything, I’d expect US officials to be the first to deny or attempt to obfuscate any such connection. What’d be the US’s angle in attempting to spread disinformation in Israel’s disfavour ? [/QUOTE] Correct me if I’m wrong here, but aren’t these unnamed sources? Or are you claiming this is the official position of the US government? Assuming I’m not missing something here, why SHOULD we trust unnamed sources? How would we know what angle they have, if we don’t know who they are or what exactly they are trying to spread? [QUOTE=FinnAgain] Wonder if the thread will be locked when I check in tomorrow… [/QUOTE] They should keep it open just for the entertainment value. I’ve rarely seen a more convoluted and wooly discussion on this board. It’s a bit bemusing and vaguely surreal (my irony meter has gone off the charts several times with trusting NBC and vague assurances from unnamed US officials regarding a hot button Middle Eastern country)…almost like an acid trip flash back after downing a half bottle of Níquel chased with a fifth of cheap scotch… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/119 "2012-02-19T05:09:14Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong here, but aren’t these unnamed sources? Or are you claiming this is the official position of the US government? Assuming I’m not missing something here, why SHOULD we trust unnamed sources? How would we know what angle they have, if we don’t know who they are or what exactly they are trying to spread? The article says “US officials”, which I assumed was meant to imply “speaking in their official capacity” but I suppose that assumption is not really justified. But once again, anonymous government sources is all we ever get when it comes to skunkworks so, eh. Trust it, don’t trust it, up to you, doesn’t really matter. I think it’s fair to say that the Iranians are acting on the assumption that Israel did it, which is a pretty reasonable assumption all things considered, and one Israel hasn’t been in any haste to deny (or condemn) so far. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262/120 "2012-02-19T05:15:30Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Seriously? Do you trust them in all things, or merely this one time? As a general proposition. Why? Do you think I should be watching Fox instead? Besides which, in investigating a crime, you examine motive and _modus operandi_. NBC’s credibility is bolstered in this particular case both by the fact that Israel is the party with a (perceived) motive to kill Iran’s scientists, and by the fact that Israel has a history of using assassination as a policy tool. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-attempts-to-assassainate-ambassadors/613262.md?page=7)