# Iranian military seizes 15 British sailors in Iraqi waters **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166 "2007-03-23T13:58:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/1 "2007-03-23T13:58:25Z")
Story [here.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/23/AR2007032300574.html) 1. **Why?!** Why did the Iranians do this? Things aren’t tense enough?! Are they trying to **provoke** a war?! 2. What pretext/reason will they invoke? Will they claim the sailors were actually in Iranian waters? Were they? 3. How will this shake out? Last time it happened, in 2004, the captured sailors were forced to read an apology on Iranian television for trespassing in Iranian waters, and released. Will it be that easy this time? ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/2 "2007-03-23T14:21:06Z")
According to the BBC’s [story with charts](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6484279.stm) they were well within Iraqi waters. I reckon it’s all PR for the folks in Tehran, designed to make the government look like it’s challenging the western infidels. So they’ll ham it up, force some apologies and then release the marines/sailors, all the while praying that Tomahawks don’t start raining down on Tehran (which would probably only happen if the sailors are executed). If I were the Iranian soldiers holding the hostages, I would probably be shitting myself right about now over the possibility of an SAS/SBS rescue mission. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/3 "2007-03-23T14:25:11Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Story [here.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/23/AR2007032300574.html) 2. What pretext/reason will they invoke? Will they claim the sailors were actually in Iranian waters? Were they? [/QUOTE] Given the track record of the UK govt when it comes to Iraq and the truth - who knows? That’s one of the problems with lying. I have a memory that a legacy from the Iran Iraq war is a certain nebulousness when it comes to territorial waters. It could be anything from a provocative UK operation, to an insertion of Special forces gone wrong through an Iranian officer exceeding orders to an assertion of regional strength or an attempt at provocation by an element of the Iranian power structure. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/4 "2007-03-23T14:27:12Z")
[QUOTE=Szlater] According to the BBC’s [story with charts](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6484279.stm) they were well within Iraqi waters. I reckon it’s all PR for the folks in Tehran, designed to make the government look like it’s challenging the western infidels. So they’ll ham it up, force some apologies and then release the marines/sailors, all the while praying that Tomahawks don’t start raining down on Tehran (which would probably only happen if the sailors are executed). If I were the Iranian soldiers holding the hostages, I would probably be shitting myself right about now over the possibility of an SAS/SBS rescue mission. [/QUOTE] The charts could only come from UK official sources so they are not evidence. Unless a BBC journalist with GPS was present at the time all they can go in is DoD information. The map is also marked ‘Royal Navy’. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/5 "2007-03-23T14:39:08Z")
They’re not in the Gulf of Tonkin by any chance, are they? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/6 "2007-03-23T14:44:51Z")
the story is only about an hour old , so there are still lots of unknowns. But it seems like a perfect oportunity for the Iranians to talk tough, knowing that there is basically nothing the British or Americans can do about it. Whether it’s true or not, they can claim the sailors were in Iranian territory, and the British ambassador will have to come and beg for their release. > [@](#): > > If I were the Iranian soldiers holding the hostages, I would probably be shitting myself right about now over the possibility of an SAS/SBS rescue mission No chance at all of that happening. Even if the Iranians are stupid enough to, say, execute the captives on live television by sawing their heads off, the British public wouldnt be willing to go to war. That would mean supporting George Bush against the axis of evil. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/7 "2007-03-23T14:50:56Z")
The first the British public would hear about a rescue mission is the reports of success or failure. Nothing whatsoever to do with going to war. But no - the UK public will not support another war. We were lied into an almighty mess and we’re not stupid enough to believe the lying war mongers when they try to pull the same trick. Until it is conclusively proven otherwise by unimpeachable independent sources I’m going to assume any causus-belli Bush pulls from his ass concerning an attack on Iran will stink of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/8 "2007-03-23T15:16:37Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] But no - the UK public will not support another war. We were lied into an almighty mess and we’re not stupid enough to believe the lying war mongers when they try to pull the same trick. [/QUOTE] I wish I had your confidence. All it takes is for a Sun/Daily Mail/Telegraph campaign inciting their readers with headlines of Iranians capturing “our boys” and the next thing you know, it’ll be common sense out the window and all bets are off. Follow that up with Tehran doing something stupid - after all, weren’t they recently talking about reprisals for the abduction of some of their forces - and we could easily see things blow up ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/9 "2007-03-23T15:38:13Z")
[QUOTE=chappachula] Even if the Iranians are stupid enough to, say, execute the captives on live television by sawing their heads off, the British public wouldnt be willing to go to war. That would mean supporting George Bush against the axis of evil. [/QUOTE] A shame. The British were once a proud race. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/10 "2007-03-23T15:43:29Z")
[QUOTE=chappachula] No chance at all of that happening. Even if the Iranians are stupid enough to, say, execute the captives on live television by sawing their heads off, the British public wouldnt be willing to go to war. That would mean supporting George Bush against the axis of evil. [/QUOTE] You think? Here’s one member of the british public that would be disgusted if we _didn’t_ go to war after on air executions of servicemen. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/11 "2007-03-23T15:44:32Z")
Evidently, hatred for Bush is more important than such pride. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/12 "2007-03-23T15:51:35Z")
The Iranians will probably claim the captives are spies, no? (And maybe they are?) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/13 "2007-03-23T16:03:38Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] They’re not in the Gulf of Tonkin by any chance, are they? :dubious: [/QUOTE] My thoughts exactly. Does this look like something some random “fisherman” off the street is likely to say? Notice the phraseology. Notice the sudden switch in tone right in the middle, from “officialese” to “I’m a little dumb stupid fisherman.” Right in the middle of the quote. I’m just sayin’ is all… > [@The "Fisherman?"](#): > > “Two boats, each with a crew of six to eight multinational forces, were searching Iraqi and Iranian boats Friday morning in Ras al-Beesha area in the northern entrance of the Arab Gulf, but big Iranian boats came and took the two boats with their crews to the Iranian waters.” That’s from [here](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070323/ap_on_re_eu/british_seized_iran). Well anyway, it’s fun to be paranoid. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/14 "2007-03-23T16:11:33Z")
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers] You think? Here’s one member of the british public that would be disgusted if we _didn’t_ go to war after on air executions of servicemen. [/QUOTE] Really? Tragic, shocking and horrible though that would be, would it really be worth the untold suffering, death and misery of thousands of Iranian civilians, the deaths of hundreds more British servicemen, the inevitable further recruitment to terrorist groups all round the world, and the inevitable increase in “spectaculars” in the west. Would it really be worth that? I say - if this isn’t a damn lie, and alas there is always that possibility - that a vicious SAS raid is the correct response. Not war. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/15 "2007-03-23T16:34:33Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] Really? Tragic, shocking and horrible though that would be, would it really be worth the untold suffering, death and misery of thousands of Iranian civilians, the deaths of hundreds more British servicemen, the inevitable further recruitment to terrorist groups all round the world, and the inevitable increase in “spectaculars” in the west. Would it really be worth that? I say - if this isn’t a damn lie, and alas there is always that possibility - that a vicious SAS raid is the correct response. Not war. [/QUOTE] Well, yes. In the same way that we have zero tolerance on negotiating with kidnappers, we should have zero tolerance on kidnapping and murdering British troops. When the offender is another nation, war becomes a reasonable response imo. Now this would all be shaded differently if it turned out our guys were in Iranian waters illicitly. Not that it becomes OK to execute them or anything, but we would be the ones making provoking actions then. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/16 "2007-03-23T16:41:45Z")
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers] Well, yes. In the same way that we have zero tolerance on negotiating with kidnappers, we should have zero tolerance on kidnapping and murdering British troops. When the offender is another nation, war becomes a reasonable response imo. Now this would all be shaded differently if it turned out our guys were in Iranian waters illicitly. Not that it becomes OK to execute them or anything, but we would be the ones making provoking actions then. [/QUOTE] All this ‘executions’ on live TV is in-thread hyperbole anyway. From the Iranian POV their people, even those in Iraq at invitation have been kidnapped. And the same for the three and counting generals that have gone ‘missing’. [Third General missing](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1530527.ece) > [@](#): > > IRAN is threatening to retaliate in Europe for what it claims is a daring undercover operation by western intelligence services to kidnap senior officers in its Revolutionary Guard. > > According to Iranian sources, several officers have been abducted in the past three months and the United States has drawn up a list of other targets to be seized with the aim of destabilising Tehran’s military command. > [@](#): > > The first sign of a possible campaign against high-ranking Iranian officers emerged earlier this month with the discovery that Ali Reza Asgari, former commander of the Revolutionary Guard’s elite Quds Force in Lebanon and deputy defence minister, had vanished, apparently during a trip to Istanbul. > > Asgari’s disappearance shocked the Iranian regime as he is believed to possess some of its most closely guarded secrets. The Quds Force is responsible for operations outside Iran. > > Last week it was revealed that Colonel Amir Muhammed Shirazi, another high-ranking Revolutionary Guard officer, had disappeared, probably in Iraq. > > A third Iranian general is also understood to be missing — the head of the Revolutionary Guard in the Persian Gulf. Sources named him as Brigadier General Muhammed Soltani, but his identity could not be confirmed. > > “This is no longer a coincidence, but rather an orchestrated operation to shake the higher echelons of the Revolutionary Guard,” said an Israeli source. If you start playing dirty you can hardly complain when the other side joins you down in the gutter. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/17 "2007-03-23T17:06:09Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What pretext/reason will they invoke? Will they claim the sailors were actually in Iranian waters? I’d bet euros to croissants they will… > [@](#): > > Were they? Very possible. In all likehood, we’ll never know. It’s not like the british government will admit to it even it if it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/18 "2007-03-23T17:09:42Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] The Iranians will probably claim the captives are spies, no? (And maybe they are?) [/QUOTE] Spies? They’re Royal Navy personnel serving **in uniform.** There is no justification under international law for treating them as spies. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/19 "2007-03-23T17:19:38Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Spies? They’re Royal Navy personnel serving **in uniform.** There is no justification under international law for treating them as spies. [/QUOTE] Not all spying is done out of uniform. The Chinese frequently claim that US naval personnel are conducting electronic spying operations off coastal waters. Why couldn’t Iran claimed that the British personnel were doing the same, but they destroyed their equipment or something? ETA: I’m not saying this was actually their mission (it seems exceedingly unlikely), but it seems like something the Iranians could claim as pre-text. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/20 "2007-03-23T17:37:47Z")
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers] You think? Here’s one member of the british public that would be disgusted if we _didn’t_ go to war after on air executions of servicemen. [/QUOTE] Jesus, me too. I’m finding it hard not to see the kidnappings themselves as an act of war. I hope it’s just some local commander overstepping his bounds, not a policy of the Administration in Tehran. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166.md?page=2)