# Iranian military seizes 15 British sailors in Iraqi waters **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166 "2007-03-23T13:58:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Cryptoderk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cryptoderk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cryptoderk)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/241 "2007-03-30T10:59:32Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Offence taken. Appropriate action taken. [/QUOTE] If the truth hurts, then maybe you should cut it off and set it free. Which you seem to have done. ---
**Author:** ![Cryptoderk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cryptoderk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cryptoderk)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/242 "2007-03-30T11:00:35Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I think it might be time to read those rules again. I see no such exception. [/QUOTE] It’s not in the rules explicitly, but it is in the rules of English grammar. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/243 "2007-03-30T11:05:22Z")
[QUOTE=Cryptoderk] It’s not in the rules explicitly, but it is in the rules of English grammar. [/QUOTE] I’m sure the mods will give that every bit of consideration it deserves. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/244 "2007-03-30T11:05:25Z")
[QUOTE=Cryptoderk] If the truth hurts, then maybe you should cut it off and set it free. Which you seem to have done. [/QUOTE] Keep digging. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/245 "2007-03-30T12:26:48Z")
[QUOTE=Cryptoderk] It’s not in the rules explicitly, but it is in the rules of English grammar. [/QUOTE] If it’s not in the rules of the SDMB my friend you can expect a :smack: ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/246 "2007-03-30T12:30:12Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Warning: this sort of direct insult, particularly when you have already been pushing the envelope with your broad-brush slams against entire populations and choosing to not control your temper, here, is a direct violation of the rules. You will not do this again. [/Moderating] [/QUOTE] I accept the slap down - I did lose my rag. I dispute that Palestinians or Iranians could be called a ‘race’, but that is not really the main subject. As it happens I think that the UK and USA are a bunch of idiots for re-electing Blair and Bush - but that too is not the main subject. The way I see things is that the Iranians are playing a different game, their rules and our rules don’t coincide. I’m also curious why the Russians have decided that Iran is not permitted to have its nuclear plant commissioned, the official reason is a few million dollars, but that does not wash. There is something going on within Iran, probably an internal power struggle. @ **Elsie** after a certain amount of time on the SDMB one learns to be polite to people with different views - it is boring listening to ones own stuff echoed back I believe that the UK should start making the moves to whack Iran. The Saudis would love it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/247 "2007-03-30T13:24:33Z")
[QUOTE=Cryptoderk] No offence tagos, but you’re a fucking stupid twat (this is not against the rules because I said “No offence”). [/QUOTE] I have no idea what you you believe to be the basis for this odd logic, but that was a direct violation of this board’s rules. This is a Warning to refrain from calling people names in **Great Debates**. Do not do this again. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/248 "2007-03-30T13:27:10Z")
[QUOTE=Cryptoderk] If the truth hurts, then maybe you should cut it off and set it free. Which you seem to have done. [/QUOTE] Since the formal Warning had not been issued prior to this post, I am not going to “double up” the Warnings issued, but you would be well advised to refrain from this sort of language, as well. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/249 "2007-03-30T13:27:20Z")
that’s two on the naughty step ! And what a fine pair they are, madam. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/250 "2007-03-30T13:32:05Z")
[Iran ahead of the game - for now](http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IC30Ak04.html) > [@](#): > > Simultaneously, the combined US maneuvers and London’s fiery rhetoric against Iran have made Moscow and Beijing realize the explosive nature of the situation, inducing them to draw a red line on their support for the United States’ designs against Iran. > > **Thus, in their joint statement in Moscow, President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Hu Jintao warned the US against making any military moves on Iran**. The United States’ painstakingly assembled international coalition against Iran at the United Nations has now been put to severe new tests. It is far from clear that, by the time the Security Council meets again some two months from now to consider the Iran nuclear crisis, the coalition will even be intact. And to think that a certain member of this Forum was convinced of a possible UK alliance with Russia to attack Iran. As I said then, I’ll say it again: words fail. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/251 "2007-03-30T13:36:00Z")
[QUOTE=Elsie] that’s two on the naughty step ! And what a fine pair they are, madam. [/QUOTE] Let us also refrain from commenting on the “missteps” of others in a **GD** thread, shall we? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/252 "2007-03-30T13:36:21Z")
I really don’t think that we Brits can complain about the kidnap and threatened trial of our servicemen when we have acquiesced in this: > **[BBC NEWS | Americas | Hicks gets Guantanamo plea deal](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6510899.stm)** > > Australian David Hicks will face at most seven years in jail for aiding al-Qaeda, in a plea deal at Guantanamo. \*Australian detainee David Hicks has returned to a US military tribunal at Guantanamo Bay to give a detailed account of how he helped al-Qaeda. Hicks pleaded guilty on Monday to providing material support for terrorism, in the first case to be heard by the special tribunals. He must affirm the facts of the charges for the judge to accept his guilty plea. Sentence will then be passed. The 31-year-old Muslim convert appeared with short hair and in a suit. The Australian, who has been held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba for five years, was accused of attending al-Qaeda training camps and fighting with the Taleban. \* I would rate these two potential show trials as about on level par. The coalition deserves everything it gets, so long as the Gitmo Gulag continues. As I started pointing out during the winter of our missed content, the moral high ground has been sacrificed and now we are down in the gutter with the other murderers, kidnappers, and show-triallers. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/253 "2007-03-30T13:47:46Z")
Furthermore, said member appears to be unaware that the Saudis and the Iranians have been mending fences over the winter: [The Fantasy of American Diplomacy in the Middle East](http://www.antiwar.com/engelhardt/?articleid=10746) > [@](#): > > As Washington pressed for the isolation of Iran, \*\*Riyadh – supposedly the leader of a new Axis of Moderation being constructed by Washington – spent the winter vigorously engaging Tehran at the highest level. The purpose was to begin to calm Shi’ite-Sunni tensions across the region, aggravated by the catastrophic situation in Iraq, and to bring Lebanon’s warring factions back from the brink of confrontation. While the U.S. press was generally reporting that the Saudis were entering a period of muscular confrontation with Iran, that country appeared to be searching for mechanisms to manage Saudi/Iranian differences based on a mutual recognition of each other’s regional roles. \*\*Not exactly what George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, or Condoleezza Rice seems to have had in mind. Whatsmore, King Abdullah sent a rather strong message to the US: > [@](#): > > In reality, the Bush administration seems increasingly at odds with the consensus among the Arab moderates it claims to be leading. Saudi Arabia’s King Abdullah, in particular, appears to have sent a signal of this in cancelling – with little explanation – a special state dinner that was to be hosted by President Bush on April 17th. Then, **at Wednesday’s Arab League Summit in Riyadh, the King followed up by demanding an end to the crippling financial siege of the Palestinian Authority imposed by the U.S. and denouncing the American military presence in Iraq as an “illegitimate foreign occupation.”** This is strong stuff from the Saudis. Highlights mine. Bad news, not. ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/254 "2007-03-30T13:48:58Z")
In geo-political terms, in _realpolitik_ terms, in any terms, that is beautiful move; finally drawing the Russians and Chinese out. > [@](#): > > Thus, in their joint statement in Moscow, President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Hu Jintao warned the US against making any military moves on Iran. The United States’ painstakingly assembled international coalition against Iran at the United Nations has now been put to severe new tests. It is far from clear that, by the time the Security Council meets again some two months from now to consider the Iran nuclear crisis, the coalition will even be intact. Sometimes you just have to admire a piece of work. Ha ! Job done. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/255 "2007-03-30T13:49:33Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] I believe that the UK should start making the moves to whack Iran. The Saudis would love it. [/QUOTE] And I ask again - whack what with what? And to what end? Apart from the 15 executed service people how many are we prepared to sacrifice of our own soldiers and Iranian citizens just to get corpses? The SAS are not supermen. They cannot just wander into Tehran and spirit the 15 away. Recall the American experience 25 years ago. Unless you have a plan and unless you have the wherewithal to carry out that plan successfully all this bellicosity is just arm-chair chest-beating that does nothing to help the situation. And frankly - a lot of the talk here is verging on tragi-comic 'they don’t like it up ‘em’ Empire nostalgia. Were not in a world where the UK has a significant military presence in the Gulf. We have a handful of ships that are vulnerable to attack, we have a few thousand troops in southern Iraq, who already have their hands full and who are in a position where Iran could ramp up the pressure, we undoubtedly have a cruise missile submarine lurking around and we have nukes. Maybe the Ark royal is there with a handful of Harriers. The Iranians have military superiority on their own turf. They have ballistic missiles and they have anti-ship cruise missiles, which as the hit on the Isreali destroyer off Lebanon shows, are effective. If I thought there was a military solution I’d be all for it. I was totally on board with the Falklands and I’m totally up for fighting in Afghanistan. But short of an all out American attack, which would still end up with the 15 dead, I genuinely don’t see a viable option here and despite repeated requests no-one has demonstrated one. All I’m offered is abstract hand-waving and low-watt lightbulb insults that would embarrass a ten year old. Are you talking nukes? Are you seriously suggesting killing hundreds of thousands is a reasonable response to this incident, particularly when ‘our’ side is doing much the same thing. To quote a UK commentator [A peculiar outrage](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2046324,00.html) > [@](#): > > It’s right that the government and media should be concerned about the treatment the 15 captured marines and sailors are receiving in Iran. Faye Turney’s letters bear the marks of coercion, while parading the prisoners in front of TV cameras was demeaning. But the outrage expressed by ministers and leader writers is curious given the recent record of the “coalition of the willing” on the way it deals with prisoners. > > Turney may have been “forced to wear the hijab”, as the Daily Mail noted with fury, but so far as we know she has not been forced into an orange jumpsuit. Her comrades have not been shackled, blindfolded, forced into excruciating physical contortions for long periods, or denied liquids and food. As far as we know they have not had the Bible spat on, torn up or urinated on in front of their faces. They have not had electrodes attached to their genitals or been set on by attack dogs. > > They have not been hung from a forklift truck and photographed for the amusement of their captors. They have not been pictured naked and smeared in their own excrement. They have not been bundled into a CIA-chartered plane and secretly “rendered” to a basement prison in a country where torturers are experienced and free to do their worst. > > As far as we know, Turney and her comrades are not being “worked hard”, the euphemism coined by one senior British army officer for the abuse of prisoners at Camp Bread Basket. And as far as we know all 15 are alive and well, which is more than can be said for Baha Mousa, the hotel receptionist who, in 2003, was unfortunate enough to have been taken into custody by British troops in Basra. There has of course been a court martial and it exonerated the soldiers of Mousa’s murder. So we can only assume that his death - by beating - was self-inflicted; yet another instance of “asymmetrical warfare”, the description given by US authorities to the deaths of the Guantánamo detainees who hanged themselves last year. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/256 "2007-03-30T13:58:54Z")
Too right, **Tagos**. [Col. Nathan R. Jessep/Jack Nicholson]You want the truth? You can’t handle the truth! …[/Col Nathan] ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/257 "2007-03-30T14:10:03Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] How many British lives are you prepared to sacrifice in a doomed attempt to free 15? How many are you prepared to sacrifice because you are ‘angry’? [/QUOTE] Well, I’m not British, but my answer would be ‘As many as necessary. Americans will not bow to terrorists.’ This would, admittedly, be a much more acceptable view if someone in office hadn’t sullied the good name of America and started a war, but my opinion on the matter has not changed. Now, I’m not saying ‘do not negotiate with terrorists.’ but I am saying never to bow before them. If I flew before 9/11, I flew after it. I will not let a single action of a terrorist change how I live my life. Sadly, and this is a personal decision, I’m willing to let fifteen soldiers die. They will not be forgotten, but they will not be tools of our enemies, either. I rather suspect that the SAS is, right now, performing some very interesting training maneuvers, and flight plans are being laid. Will they be used? I’m not sure, but the option is certainly on the table. I doubt they’ll be used quickly, but training time is precious. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/258 "2007-03-30T14:21:44Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Well, I’m not British, but my answer would be ‘As many as necessary. Americans will not bow to terrorists.’ This would, admittedly, be a much more acceptable view if someone in office hadn’t sullied the good name of America and started a war, but my opinion on the matter has not changed. Now, I’m not saying ‘do not negotiate with terrorists.’ but I am saying never to bow before them. If I flew before 9/11, I flew after it. I will not let a single action of a terrorist change how I live my life. Sadly, and this is a personal decision, I’m willing to let fifteen soldiers die. They will not be forgotten, but they will not be tools of our enemies, either. I rather suspect that the SAS is, right now, performing some very interesting training maneuvers, and flight plans are being laid. Will they be used? I’m not sure, but the option is certainly on the table. I doubt they’ll be used quickly, but training time is precious. [/QUOTE] Well, i’m glad you’re feeling so free and easy with other people’s lives. And i’m happy to hear you think our SAS are khaki-clad Supermen sans the allergy to kryptonite. However - you will recall what happened when your (admittedly mere mortal) super-soldiers tried the same thing? Okay, they couldn’t fly under their own power like ours can, and helicopters and sand don’t really mix, but even so. If I was PM and was presented with a good plan I’d go for it but this is the real world. Look where Iran is. It couldn’t be further from the coast. It is a long way from the northern iraq border. Getting enough helicopters to Tehran in secret is practically impossible even if you could free them from the middle of a military base that is no doubt waiting for you. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/259 "2007-03-30T14:25:38Z")
[QUOTE=Elsie] In geo-political terms, in _realpolitik_ terms, in any terms, that is beautiful move; finally drawing the Russians and Chinese out. Sometimes you just have to admire a piece of work. Ha ! Job done. [/QUOTE] Could expound a bit on the above? Not sure what you mean, for it is an open secret that Russia is providing the expertise for Iran’s nuclear project and although they’ve had some quibbles over the payments and other minor irritants, that doesn’t mean their relationship is in tatters. As for China, I think it is also well-know that they have much vested in Iran’s oil supply, thus it’s only logical they’d stand-up to yet another American power (oil) grab. So all in all, I expected no different when things came to a head. ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/260 "2007-03-30T14:28:47Z")
Red Fury - started a thread now, as the point is probably worth airing more widely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166.md?page=14)