# Iranian military seizes 15 British sailors in Iraqi waters **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166 "2007-03-23T13:58:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/261 "2007-03-30T14:36:21Z")
**Pjen** : acquiesced in what? He is an Aussie. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/262 "2007-03-30T15:13:49Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] We also have TV footage of Iranians holding banners calling for the execution of the 15 “aggressors”. Are they simple or what?. Don’t they realise what would happen should even one of the captives be harmed. Time for Blair to stop fucking, farting and fannying around with these fucktards. [/QUOTE] Every military action pursued by the United States has triggered the appearance on American street corners of savagely nationalistic mouth-breathers who enthusiastically wave placards encouraging the free use of our nuclear arsenal against the enemy _du jour._ They are rightly regarded by most as the bloodthirsty fringe and for the most part are ignored. They certainly don’t influence official policy to any measurable degree. Don’t judge an entire people by the beliefs and actions of its worst members, unless you yourself want to be judged by the backward knuckledraggers in your neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/263 "2007-03-30T15:18:15Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Warning: this sort of direct insult, particularly when you have already been pushing the envelope with your broad-brush slams against entire populations and choosing to not control your temper, here, is a direct violation of the rules. You will not do this again. [/Moderating] [/QUOTE] Point of order. Are broad brush slams against entire populations forbidden in other fora as well, or just GD? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/264 "2007-03-30T15:57:48Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] what will do it in the end is diplomacy. [/QUOTE] Diplomacy? Something like this, then? “the policy of settling international quarrels by admitting and satisfying grievances through rational negotiation and compromise, thereby avoiding the resort to an armed conflict which would be, expensive, bloody and possibly dangerous.” ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/265 "2007-03-30T17:01:45Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Well, i’m glad you’re feeling so free and easy with other people’s lives. And i’m happy to hear you think our SAS are khaki-clad Supermen sans the allergy to kryptonite. [/QUOTE] Now, tagos, there you go again. I’m no freer with anyone else’s life than I would be with my own. I was pointing out that, when you talk about hundreds of people dying, fifteen people could also die. That said, I didn’t say that the SAS is going to walk in and walk out. I’m saying, irrespective of if they are called to move or not, the SAS are training to haul these people out as well as they can. I know you don’t think much of them, but they really are quite capable. If they’re tasked to go, they will go and do as well as humanly possible. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/266 "2007-03-30T17:54:54Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] **Pjen** : acquiesced in what? He is an Aussie. [/QUOTE] Acquiesced in the continuation of the Gitmo Gulag- Blair having no balls at all to stand up for human rights- ‘An Anomaly’ indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/267 "2007-03-30T17:56:35Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Don’t judge an entire people by the beliefs and actions of its worst members, unless you yourself want to be judged by the backward knuckledraggers in your neighborhood. [/QUOTE] Agreed; I wouldn’t want to be judged by the antics of **chowder** , that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/268 "2007-03-31T06:14:30Z")
Ex Python’s take on this matter: > **[Terry Jones: Call that humiliation?](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/mar/31/comment.foreignpolicy)** > > Terry Jones: No hoods. No electric shocks. No beatings. These Iranians clearly are a very uncivilised bunch. I think he meatly sums up my position onthe matter. Obviously the Iranians are not as civilized as we, eh **Chowder**. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/269 "2007-03-31T07:12:58Z")
[QUOTE=Pjen] Ex Python’s take on this matter: > **[Terry Jones: Call that humiliation?](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/mar/31/comment.foreignpolicy)** > > Terry Jones: No hoods. No electric shocks. No beatings. These Iranians clearly are a very uncivilised bunch. I think he meatly sums up my position onthe matter. Obviously the Iranians are not as civilized as we, eh **Chowder**. [/QUOTE] Really? Please explain why trained (I assume they were trained like I was when I was in the Canadian army) military people would willing say things against their will without coercion? Even if I knew I was in Iranian waters I wouldn’t be saying such a thing on TV. Frankly, you get name, rank and serial number. PERIOD. Now that sounds good on paper, but in actuality you are not expected to throw yourself on a bayonet. But some guy looking at you cross-eyed shouldn’t be enough to make you do things you don’t want to. If these soldiers are under no coercion then when they are released they should be court martialed and either sent to jail or given a dishonourable discharge. But, I bet they are and you just don’t see what type of coercion it is. Not all coercion is physical or visible. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/270 "2007-03-31T07:20:22Z")
[QUOTE=Pjen] Ex Python’s take on this matter: > **[Terry Jones: Call that humiliation?](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/mar/31/comment.foreignpolicy)** > > Terry Jones: No hoods. No electric shocks. No beatings. These Iranians clearly are a very uncivilised bunch. I think he meatly sums up my position onthe matter. Obviously the Iranians are not as civilized as we, eh **Chowder**. [/QUOTE] In my opinion, no they are not. Incidentally, are you stalking me? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/271 "2007-03-31T07:29:14Z")
[QUOTE=Uzi] Really? Please explain why trained (I assume they were trained like I was when I was in the Canadian army) military people would willing say things against their will without coercion? [/QUOTE] Because they expect to be treated the way _we_ treat prisoners ? I know that if I was captured by our enemies I’d be afraid they would apply our own standards to me. Honestly, I’m surprised that anyone in Iraq surrenders; I’d shoot myself before surrendering to the Coalition. For that matter, the Guardian article doesn’t say they weren’t coerced; just that they weren’t treated as badly as they would be if they were ME people in Coalition hands. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/272 "2007-03-31T07:39:19Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] For that matter, the Guardian article doesn’t say they weren’t coerced; just that they weren’t treated as badly as they would be if they were ME people in Coalition hands. [/QUOTE] I’m interested in how they know this is the case? I’m not saying it isn’t the case, I just want to know how they know it is? Or has the military turned into a bunch of pussies since I was in 20-some years ago? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/273 "2007-03-31T07:53:08Z")
[QUOTE=Uzi] I’m interested in how they know this is the case? I’m not saying it isn’t the case, I just want to know how they know it is? Or has the military turned into a bunch of pussies since I was in 20-some years ago? [/QUOTE] I don’t _know_; as I just said, that was the point of the article. Do you have any reason to believe they _were_ treated as badly ? Especially since they are still alive ? And as an aside, not only is using the term “pussy” to mean “weak” obnoxious and sexist, it’s even more so when one of the people involved is a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/274 "2007-03-31T08:45:07Z")
What has Iran got to achieve by treating people badly ? There’s an an enormous amount to be gained from treating the well, and _being seen to treat them well_ i.e. contrasting how they treat ‘detainees’ with how ‘the west’ treats Muslim detainees. Don’t apply our leaders and standards. Really, the Iranians aren’t that stupid. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/275 "2007-03-31T08:52:08Z")
[QUOTE=Elsie] What has Iran got to achieve by treating people badly ? There’s an an enormous amount to be gained from treating the well, and _being seen to treat them well_ i.e. contrasting how they treat ‘detainees’ with how ‘the west’ treats Muslim detainees. Don’t apply our leaders and standards. Really, the Iranians aren’t that stupid. [/QUOTE] :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/276 "2007-03-31T09:02:34Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] :dubious: [/QUOTE] :dubious: right back at you. **Elsie** ’s statement is perfectly reasonable, and a smiley isn’t much of a rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/277 "2007-03-31T09:49:23Z")
Personally I think a rescue mission would be an act of madness and impossible to pull off. The trouble is that once they’ve pulled a stunt like that, they’ll pull another, and another. It is difficult dealing with people who enter someone else’s territory, kidnap a bunch of uniformed people then accuse them of spying. The mentality is at the level of a small boy telling a lie and expecting to be believed. The fact that they think it will drum up local support indicates that they think their own population is pretty gullible **note: they are making broad brush generalizations - not me** One needs to respond, preferably in a way that will make them hold off from pulling another trick, like a ‘spontaneous’ storming of the British Embassy - something I consider very likely. At present, the best I can think of is withdrawing our diplomatic staff, advizing UK nationals to get out and packing their diplomatic staff off to Tehran. I would also look carefully into ways of inflicting economically crippling damage and make it clear that we are considering it. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/278 "2007-03-31T11:00:24Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I don’t _know_; as I just said, that was the point of the article. Do you have any reason to believe they _were_ treated as badly ? Especially since they are still alive ? [/QUOTE] Trained military personnel should not willingly go on camera when it is obvious it will be used by their captors for propaganda purposes. Either they did it willingly with little coercion, or they were forced to. I assume that they would have been trained like I was so I figure they were forced to. > [@](#): > > And as an aside, not only is using the term “pussy” to mean “weak” obnoxious and sexist, it’s even more so when one of the people involved is a woman. But it is the Iranians who are forcing her to wear a head scarf because she has a vagina. Proof alone that they are more civilized than us. Yet, it is me you are upset at for using a term that I’d heard used many a time in the military over 20 years ago. A term that came to me while I was trying to remember what it was like when I wore a uniform. Well, I’m sorry if I offended anyone by my comment. Please replace ‘pussies’ with ‘weaklings’ if anyone chooses to read my post above… ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/279 "2007-03-31T11:42:23Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] :dubious: right back at you. **Elsie** ’s statement is perfectly reasonable, and a smiley isn’t much of a rebuttal. [/QUOTE] Long ago I lost any respect that I may have had for you. You do not like anything about the west from what I can gather, this being so just sod off to whatever country you find appealing. I have nothing else to say in this thread but I’ll just remind you and Elsie that it was not the West who was responsible for. 1. The WTC atrocity 2. The London tube and bus bombings 3. The Madrid bombings Plus a host of others directed at innocents with NO means of defence …and don’t throw the WTC conspiracy theories at me because they are bullcrap Read **Uzis** closing paragraph, digest it and ponder on what is said there. I’m out of here, save your breath ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/280 "2007-03-31T11:46:44Z")
[QUOTE=Uzi] Trained military personnel should not willingly go on camera when it is obvious it will be used by their captors for propaganda purposes. Either they did it willingly with little coercion, or they were forced to. I assume that they would have been trained like I was so I figure they were forced to. [/QUOTE] The UK papers have brought up this subject a few times, I doubt it is a coincidence. The idea is that they are told to cooperate as nobody would believe that they really meant what they were saying. From memory, they are told to keep quiet about anything important for 48 hours, as after then it will not matter much. It makes sense as reeling out a whole load of nonsense is quite a good way of avoiding physical torture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166.md?page=15)