# Iranian military seizes 15 British sailors in Iraqi waters **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166 "2007-03-23T13:58:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2007, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/341 "2007-04-04T18:09:21Z")
[QUOTE=Elsie] I only saw images of her in a Hijab/head scarf, not a veil. Also didn’t know anyone was “forced” to do anything - any links appreciated ? [/QUOTE] You ask for links knowing full well that none exist. :dubious: If you think the woman willingly wore the headscarf or that the guys shown on Iranian TV appeared without being coerced to do so, then you live on another sphere ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/342 "2007-04-04T18:17:51Z")
I’m pleased. Diplomacy works! I was really quite afraid they were leveraging things against the UN and settling in for the long term propaganda issue. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/343 "2007-04-04T18:40:39Z")
Are they going to be greeted as heroes when they return to Britain? Did they resist the Iranian patrol boats, or let themselves be captured without a fight? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2007, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/344 "2007-04-04T18:55:27Z")
There’s not going to be a ticker-tape parade. That’s not British 😛 > [@](#): > > Did they resist the Iranian patrol boats, or let themselves be captured without a fight? Maybe they were following orders not to engage the Iranians. Might explain why Cornwall didn’t open fire, too. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/345 "2007-04-04T20:52:42Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Since when has America needed to be provided a _casus belli_ ? We’ll simply make one up, if we feel like bothering. [/QUOTE] That’s true of any country. But going to war without a strong _casus belli_ has generally resulted in a net loss of support from other countries across the world and can hurt a state’s diplomatic standing and cost them valuable political capital. It doesn’t mean a state should never go to war without a strong _casus belli_ just that the condemnation and loss of political capital needs to be worth the gains from the subsequent war for it to make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2007, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/346 "2007-04-04T21:20:35Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] That’s true of any country. [/quote] Which rather proves my point; we don’t need one. [QUOTE=Martin Hyde] But going to war without a strong _casus belli_ has generally resulted in a net loss of support from other countries across the world and can hurt a state’s diplomatic standing and cost them valuable political capital. [/quote] Bush is still President, and he’s never shown any concern for any of that. ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2007, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/347 "2007-04-04T22:12:18Z")
[QUOTE=Dominic Mulligan] … Let’s get this straight: You think that the hypothesis that the sailors appearing live on Iranian news willingly to perform “confessions” and “apologies”, with the female sailor wearing a headscarf, is as likely as the hypothesis that they did so under duress? [/QUOTE] What do you mean “duress”. There’s no history of any mistreatment by Iranians of any westerners as best I know in, say the last 20 years - where are you coming from, do you mean an arm up the back, a bit of American style torture ? I honestly have no idea what you mean - I presume you understand it is standard military training to cooperate with captors and to do everything you can (as a detainee) to diffuse situations. And if I know that, the Iranians know that . . . ? [QUOTE=Dominic Mulligan] … Also, you didn’t answer **Frylock** ’s earlier question, **Elsie**. What do you suppose Blair could have done in order to avoid looking like a “fiddle”? Resigned his position as chairman of “UK.plc”? [/QUOTE] I thought his Ministers - partic that ridiculous woman Beckett and someone else I forget - did all they could to whip up the mob into a frenzy at a couple of points, esp. when the sailors were shown on tv. Several examples of playing to a partic UK gallery which increased tensions rather than dissipating them. And no, I don’t think the Ministers were speaking off their own bat. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2007, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/348 "2007-04-04T22:27:07Z")
[Iran envoy to meet detainees held by US in Iraq: report (Roundup)](http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/news/article_1287212.php/Iran_envoy_to_meet_detainees_held_by_US_in_Iraq_report__Roundup_) ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2007, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/349 "2007-04-04T22:32:13Z")
It’ll obviously take days/weeks for bits and pieces of the deal to emerge. [Tomorrow’s Guardian offers a few titbits:](http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2050076,00.html) > [@](#): > > The cheerful announcement, however, also coincided with news that the US authorities might allow a consular visit to five Iranians they have been holding in Iraq since January. > > President Ahmadinejad adamantly denied a deal was done here. But a senior Iranian source suggested that while the capture of the British naval crew had not been motivated by the US seizure of the Iranian officials in Irbil two months earlier, it did raise the issue of double standards. Why was one group being called hostages, and the subject of international outrage, while the other group, the Iranians, were forgotten, the Iranian source wanted to know. The US response is that the Iranians in Irbil were Revolutionary Guards caught red-handed fomenting the insurgency. > > 4.15pm > All smiles as sailors go free > Ahmadinejad’s grand gesture makes him look generous, and strengthens the hand of those in the west who favour diplomacy, writes Julian Borger > > Julian Borger, diplomatic editor > Wednesday April 4, 2007 > Guardian Unlimited > > Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad arrives at a press conference in Tehran > Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad arrives at the press conference in Tehran. Photograph: Vahid Salemi/AP > > Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said he was releasing the 15 captive Britons to mark the anniversary of the birth of the prophet Muhammad, as well as Easter. The cheerful announcement, however, also coincided with news that the US authorities might allow a consular visit to five Iranians they have been holding in Iraq since January. > > President Ahmadinejad adamantly denied a deal was done here. But a senior Iranian source suggested that while the capture of the British naval crew had not been motivated by the US seizure of the Iranian officials in Irbil two months earlier, it did raise the issue of double standards. Why was one group being called hostages, and the subject of international outrage, while the other group, the Iranians, were forgotten, the Iranian source wanted to know. The US response is that the Iranians in Irbil were Revolutionary Guards caught red-handed fomenting the insurgency. > > Article continues > The Iraqi government appears to have played a critical role in the resolution of the crisis. Although he may not have been directly asked to broker a deal, neither the British nor the Iranians stopped Hoshyar Zebari, the Iraqi foreign minister, from pressing for progress on the handling of the “Irbil five” and the release on Monday of another Iranian diplomat who had been seized by unidentified gunmen wearing Iraqi military uniforms It’s a funny old game. ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2007, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/350 "2007-04-04T22:33:16Z")
jesus, that was crap coding. Again. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/351 "2007-04-05T00:11:25Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] [Iran envoy to meet detainees held by US in Iraq: report (Roundup)](http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/news/article_1287212.php/Iran_envoy_to_meet_detainees_held_by_US_in_Iraq_report__Roundup_) [/QUOTE] Hehehe…almost miraculous really. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/352 "2007-04-05T03:46:55Z")
[QUOTE=Evil One] I’m coming a bit late to the party, Red, so forgive me if I’m going over ground already covered. What is your logic for equating the British sailors with the Gitmo detainees? [/QUOTE] …the Iranians have put up a far more convincing case for the guilt of their detainees than the US has for the vast majority of the Guantanemo detainees. They have also apparently been treated better. And also, **Red Fury** didn’t specify only Guantanemo detainees. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/353 "2007-04-05T04:53:18Z")
[QUOTE=Elsie] I honestly have no idea what you mean - I presume you understand it is standard military training to cooperate with captors and to do everything you can (as a detainee) to diffuse situations. And if I know that, the Iranians know that . . . ? [/QUOTE] Exactly how do you know that? When I was in the military it was name, rank and serial number. FRDE and I had a discussion about why they **might** be cooperating with their captors. I don’t remember anyone saying they know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/354 "2007-04-05T07:06:10Z")
**Uzi** : Exactly, name, rank, serial number. That’s all you are required to give your captors, just that and nothing more. So **Elsie** : from where do you get the idea that captured military personnel have to do everything to diffuse a situation. Share with us your source of information. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/355 "2007-04-05T07:16:45Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] **Uzi** : Exactly, name, rank, serial number. That’s all you are required to give your captors, just that and nothing more. [/QUOTE] You are also obligated to give date of birth. Together those are called the Big Four, and they can be found on the back of any military ID, which in the case of the US doubles as the Geneva Conventions Identification Card. When you are not at war with your captors and it is not a case of terrorist abduction, though, it is not a good idea to stick to that (even though it is perfectly legitimate to do so). There are other things that you are permitted to say, foremost among them being “I wish to see my Ambassador” and “Thank you for helping me, can you please take me to my Embassy?”. These (and other things) are the kinds of things that High-Risk-of-Capture people are taught at SERE school. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/356 "2007-04-05T07:23:13Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] You are also obligated to give date of birth. Together those are called the Big Four, and they can be found on the back of any military ID, which in the case of the US doubles as the Geneva Conventions Identification Card. When you are not at war with your captors and it is not a case of terrorist abduction, though, it is not a good idea to stick to that (even though it is perfectly legitimate to do so). There are other things that you are permitted to say, foremost among them being “I wish to see my Ambassador” and “Thank you for helping me, can you please take me to my Embassy?”. These (and other things) are the kinds of things that High-Risk-of-Capture people are taught at SERE school. [/QUOTE] Didn’t know about the DoB thing, this must be new? Am I correct in saying captured military personnel do not have to do everything to diffuse a situation as Elsie seems to think. SERE school? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/357 "2007-04-05T07:41:34Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Didn’t know about the DoB thing, this must be new? [/quote] Not so much. It’s been the case since long before I went through SERE school (2002). > [@](#): > > Am I correct in saying captured military personnel do not have to do everything to diffuse a situation as Elsie seems to think. You are correct. As a captive you have to follow a lawful order from your captors. What entails a lawful order is specifically laid out in the Geneva Conventions. For instance, you cannot be made to construct fortifications or build armaments. You can be made to clean the camp. > [@](#): > > SERE school? S-Survival E-Evasion R-Resistance E-Escape It’s where you learn how to conduct yourself if you are ever captured. The major focus is how to reconcile the [Code of Conduct](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_United_States_Military_Code_of_Conduct) with the necessity to survive in captivity. You are not obligated to give them anything but the Big Four and you should not ever volunteer anything, but if the options are to give up the goods or die, you give up as little as possible in order to facilitate your survival. That should be the extent of your cooperation. Outright collaboration is a crime, and collaborators can be charged as such upon repatriation. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/358 "2007-04-05T07:50:08Z")
I’ve had a look at the CoC and have a question concerning captured medical personnel. Would a captured medic be obliged to render aid to wounded enemy personnel or would this be construed as aiding the enemy should he do so? ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/359 "2007-04-05T07:52:06Z")
chowder - make your point, why this emphasis on _everything_, you obviously have a wicked trap you are desperate to spring - just let me have it with both barrels . . . . ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/360 "2007-04-05T07:54:16Z")
[QUOTE=Elsie] chowder - make your point, why this emphasis on _everything_, you obviously have a wicked trap you are desperate to spring - just let me have it with both barrels . . . . [/QUOTE] No trap, I’m just curious about your source of info…if you have one which I doubt [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166.md?page=19)