# Iranian military seizes 15 British sailors in Iraqi waters **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166 "2007-03-23T13:58:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/61 "2007-03-24T10:52:59Z")
I’m confident this Iranian action is only for internal consumption. 'The incident came as U.N. Security Council members were putting the final touches to a resolution imposing new sanctions on Iran over its refusal to halt sensitive nuclear work. A vote on the resolution could take place as early as Saturday. … Britain summoned Iran’s ambassador in London and demanded the servicemen’s immediate release. … “There was no fighting, no engagement of weapons, anything like that, it was entirely peaceful,” said Commodore Nick Lambert, commander of the British fleet in the area.’ [http://uk.news.yahoo.com/24032007/325/britain-wants-explanation-sailors-seizure.html](http://uk.news.yahoo.com/24032007/325/britain-wants-explanation-sailors-seizure.html) There is no way Blair is going to have the backing of the UK Parliament for use of nuclear weapons and even military action will be unpopular. ‘Eighty-seven Labour MPs voted against his plan to spend 15 to 20 billion pounds on new nuclear-armed submarines to replace ones that go out of service in about 2024. It was the biggest rebellion against Blair since a 2003 vote backing war in Iraq and the largest rebellion on a domestic issue in Blair’s decade in power. The revolt could have overturned Blair’s 67-seat majority in the 646-member Commons, but backing from the Conservatives helped Blair secure a 409-161 vote in favour of renewing the Trident nuclear weapons system. The rebellion was a further blow to Blair’s authority over the party as he prepares to step down in the next few months.’ [http://uk.news.yahoo.com/14032007/325/parliament-backs-new-nuclear-arsenal.html](http://uk.news.yahoo.com/14032007/325/parliament-backs-new-nuclear-arsenal.html) ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/62 "2007-03-24T11:05:29Z")
Several people have now insisted that Blair wouldn’t have backing for military action against Iran. Given that the only likely scenario where Britain threatens military action would be if the soldiers are harmed then I cannot see Britain just rolling over - there’d be massive public support for action. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/63 "2007-03-24T11:33:12Z")
[QUOTE=glee] There is no way Blair is going to have the backing of the UK Parliament for use of nuclear weapons and even military action will be unpopular. [/QUOTE] I disagree. All it takes is some stupid execution or similarly provocative action, and the tabloids will be baying for blood. Talks of nuking Iran are idiocy - there’s no way any western country would claim that was a proportional response even to the televised execution of 15 soldiers. A protracted series of cruise strikes on military targets is far more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/64 "2007-03-24T12:53:10Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I seriously doubt that; I think you overestimate our ability to defeat someone in a position to fight back. [/QUOTE] No, he doesn’t. We handled Iraq very well before ever setting foot on the ground in 1991. There’s a huge difference between invading and occupying a country and just wrecking one. Iran would probably shoot some of our planes down, capture/execute some of our pilots, but at the end of the day, their country would be ruined. This would cause massive instability in the region (far more than there is now), completely destroy anything the Iranians have built in the last 18-19 years or so since the end of the Iran-Iraq war. And that’s of course not to mention all the negatives for the Western world on top of all this. What about Iran’s air forces or anti-air capabilities makes you think they would have a significant ability to impede the United States and United Kingdom from wrecking their country from above? There’s a difference between being able to fight back and being able to fight back successfully. A guy in a bar may be able to land a few punches versus someone like Mike Tyson (in his prime), but at the end of the day only one of the combatants in that scenario is going to be in the hospital with a caved in face, and it isn’t Tyson. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/65 "2007-03-24T13:11:25Z")
That post of yours **Martin** just about sums it up. Well done and well said ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/66 "2007-03-24T13:13:14Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] We handled Iraq very well before ever setting foot on the ground in 1991. [/QUOTE] Which unlike Iraq has had many years to prepare, and I have little doubt has assumed for years that they would be attacked by the US no matter what they did. Also, our military was in better condition back then. [QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Iran would probably shoot some of our planes down, capture/execute some of our pilots, but at the end of the day, their country would be ruined. This would cause massive instability in the region (far more than there is now), completely destroy anything the Iranians have built in the last 18-19 years or so since the end of the Iran-Iraq war. [/quote] Not unless we use nukes. I’m not talking about them shooting down our planes; I’m talking about them hiding things or people, or putting them in bunkers we can’t breach without nukes. Bombing the civilian infrastructure to bits will simply make the government stronger; I expect that they **want** us to. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/67 "2007-03-24T13:17:07Z")
We might be witnessing some sort of coup d’etat inside Iran. The capture of 17 British sea troopers is nothing against the non-arrival of Ahmedinejad to bore the United Nations. Something is going on. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/68 "2007-03-24T13:22:11Z")
> [@](#): > > I disagree. All it takes is some stupid execution or similarly provocative action, and the tabloids will be baying for blood. Because only the Tabloid Press would be _stupid_ enough to see the kidnapping and execution of British soldiers as an act of war. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/69 "2007-03-24T13:50:31Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] We might be witnessing some sort of coup d’etat inside Iran. The capture of 17 British sea troopers is nothing against the non-arrival of Ahmedinejad to bore the United Nations. Something is going on. [/QUOTE] Other than Ahmadinejad’s [change of plans,](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-03-23-iran-us_N.htm) do you see any reason to think so? ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/70 "2007-03-24T14:05:49Z")
> [@](#): > > What about Iran’s air forces or anti-air capabilities makes you think they would have a significant ability to impede the United States and United Kingdom from wrecking their country from above? There’s a difference between being able to fight back and being able to fight back successfully. A guy in a bar may be able to land a few punches versus someone like Mike Tyson (in his prime), but at the end of the day only one of the combatants in that scenario is going to be in the hospital with a caved in face, and it isn’t Tyson. Between Iraq and Afganistan, there must be 150k US troops sitting around the Iranian border. Given that relatively disorganized militias and insurgents have been able to kill a decent number of them, I imagine the Iranian Army could do worse if they put their mind to it, and possibly stir up enough chaos to mean the end of the US project in that country. That wouldn’t stop US bombing, of course, but it would give Iran a decent way to strike back. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/71 "2007-03-24T14:17:00Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Other than Ahmadinejad’s [change of plans,](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-03-23-iran-us_N.htm) do you see any reason to think so? [/QUOTE] No - a Visa is something intangible - maybe a photocopy of a Fax At that level a large or (nowadays small) black car - that does not make sense ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/72 "2007-03-24T14:19:50Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] No - a Visa is something intangible - maybe a photocopy of a Fax At that level a large or (nowadays small) black car - that does not make sense [/QUOTE] This entire post does not make sense. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/73 "2007-03-24T15:26:16Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] This entire post does not make sense. [/QUOTE] Well it does to me Ach-Icanotspellhis name was whinging about a visa Which is pretty daft as a visa is not necessary. Do you really think that he would walk through queues ? Something funny is going on - Iran does not want the jerk addressing the UN ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/74 "2007-03-24T15:35:59Z")
> [@](#): > > If our leaders aren’t considering the pros and cons of stirring up international terrorism, then they aren’t doing their job properly. Islamist terrorism existed long before the US or UK had troops on the ground in Afghanistan or Iraq, it’s worse now because we are directly confronting them and their bases of support, places which have had a record for being some of the most violent poor and disspossesed areas on the planet. > [@](#): > > Look at Northern Ireland: the UK government could have razed the Falls Road with tanks, but recruitment to the IRA would have been massive. If they hadn’t been considering the effect of policy on terrorist recruitment, they’d have been as big a bunch of idiots as whoever made the call to shoot into the crowds at Bloody Sunday, or introduced Internment (which policy was directly stopped because of the recruitment to terror groups). But even when the British Army went in to protect the Catholic community, before bloody sunday there was still rejection of Unionist rule and governance by the UK of that area. > [@](#): > > You may wish to hang your opinions on a trite (albeit grammatically incorrect) slogan; I hope our foreign policy makers don’t. So because I think appropiate action has to be taken regardless of whether or not it could sometimes highten the terrorist threat, I now am a blind supporter of the war on terrorism? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/75 "2007-03-24T16:02:26Z")
[QUOTE=Gary Kumquat] Talks of nuking Iran are idiocy - there’s no way any western country would claim that was a proportional response even to the televised execution of 15 soldiers. [/QUOTE] Who said anything about a response being proportional? Why should a response be proportional? How do you define what is a proportional response anyway? Tony Blair would do it. That worries me. ---
**Author:** ![Headrush042](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Headrush042](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Headrush042)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/76 "2007-03-24T16:22:45Z")
As has been mentioned earlier, the demarkation between Iraqi and Iranian waters has always been an amorphous undertaking, at best. I was sailing the Gulf back in 2004 (US Navy) and the Iranian Navy was claiming we were violating their waters even back then, when we were clearly in international waters. Having had first-hand experience with the insanity that is their Navy, I am not one bit surprised that they finally detained coalition forces under arguably bogus pretenses. I imagine, like others in this thread, that it is mostly for internal posturing – they are more worried about what their own people think of them at this point than the opinion of the rest of the world. Without ostensible support from its own citizens, Tehran’s footing becomes rather shaky indeed. Regarding what will happen to those British sailors and marines, your guess is as good as mine. I would like to think that Tehran isn’t stupid enough to harm them, but crazier things have happened. I’m leaning more towards a prisoner exchange – after all, we did round up a good number of Iranian “agents” in Iraq last week – but I’m doubting GWB would agree to something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/77 "2007-03-24T20:04:23Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Islamist terrorism existed long before the US or UK had troops on the ground in Afghanistan or Iraq, it’s worse now because we are directly confronting them and their bases of support, places which have had a record for being some of the most violent poor and disspossesed areas on the planet. [/quote] No, it’s worse because more people have joined the terrorists and/or support them. Whether you like to admit it or not ME/Islamic people are not mindless automations whose behavior is unaffected by ours. For [example.](http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2005/07/17/study_cites_seeds_of_terror_in_iraq/) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON – New investigations by the Saudi Arabian government and an Israeli think tank – both of which painstakingly analyzed the backgrounds and motivations of hundreds of foreigners entering Iraq to fight the United States – have found that the vast majority of these foreign fighters are not former terrorists and became radicalized by the war itself. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/78 "2007-03-24T21:54:13Z")
> [@](#): > > WASHINGTON – New investigations by the Saudi Arabian government and an Israeli think tank – both of which painstakingly analyzed the backgrounds and motivations of hundreds of foreigners entering Iraq to fight the United States – have found that the vast majority of these foreign fighters are not former terrorists and became radicalized by the war itself. Yet it has helped get Arab governments to rally against those sorts of movements, and strengthen the ability of governments to go after the Jihadists. > [@](#): > > No, it’s worse because more people have joined the terrorists and/or support them. Whether you like to admit it or not ME/Islamic people are not mindless automations whose behavior is unaffected by ours. For example. So this is the reason as to why support for terrorism in those countries has gone down since the TWOT began? It’s nice to romanticise about the Muhajadeen being freedom fighters, where they’re not blowing up your backyard, but when they start blowing up Hotels and Wedding parties (Jordan for example, had high support for Al Queda) it brings down popularity. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/79 "2007-03-24T23:00:44Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Yet it has helped get Arab governments to rally against those sorts of movements, and strengthen the ability of governments to go after the Jihadists. [/quote] Cite? [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] So this is the reason as to why support for terrorism in those countries has gone down since the TWOT began? [/QUOTE] Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2007, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/80 "2007-03-25T01:46:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Cite? You need a cite for the Saudi crackdown on Jihadists coming back from Iraq, and Jihadists being arrested and their networks broken down, who wanted to topple the Saudi Monarch? > [@](#): > > Cite? > **[BBC NEWS | Middle East | Support for Bin Laden 'declining'](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4684989.stm)** > > Support for Osama Bin Laden and suicide bombing is falling in several key Muslim countries, a new poll finds. Bearing in mind that since the terrorist attacks in Amman, Jordan, the support for Jihadists has been declining too. > [@](#): > > Support for Osama Bin Laden and Islamic militant violence is falling in several key Muslim countries, according to a new survey by a US organisation. > The Pew Research Center poll suggests that support for suicide bombing is declining sharply. > > The survey examined public opinion in Morocco, Pakistan, Turkey, Indonesia, Jordan, Lebanon and 11 other states. > > The poll also found that concern about Islamic extremism was prevalent in several nations with a Muslim majority. > > Correspondents say this may be partly because violent acts in some of the states interviewed have been blamed on Islamist radicals. > > Down and up > > The Washington-based centre questioned about 1,000 people in each of the 17 countries selected, in May. > > The group also examined views in nine North American and European countries, as well as India and China. > > Support for the al-Qaeda leader has dropped in Morocco and Indonesia, where backing ran at about half the population in a similar poll two years ago. > > In Morocco, 26% now say they have a lot or some confidence in Bin Laden and 35% feel the same way in Indonesia. > > However, in Jordan, confidence rose to 60% from 55%. In Pakistan, it went to 51% from 45%. > > Analysts say a similar picture emerged when respondents were asked whether suicide bombings were justifiable. > > In Morocco 13% said they often or sometimes could be justified, down from 40% in 2004. > > However, support rose in Jordan, to 57% from 43% in 2002. > > The centre noted that there had been devastating attacks on civilians in Indonesia, Morocco and Turkey in recent years, and a recent wave of assassinations and bombings in Lebanon. Like I said, parts of the Muslim world had romantisized views on these bastards, just like some Americans did of the IRA during the troubles, thing is, when they hit close to where you live, or your own country, doesn’t look as fashionable anymore, does it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166.md?page=5)