# Iranian military seizes 15 British sailors in Iraqi waters **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166 "2007-03-23T13:58:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/121 "2007-03-26T22:59:03Z")
[QUOTE=Elsie] I’m sure you know the Persian for ‘interrogated’ as well as I do, and the word for ‘questioned’, and the word for ‘asked’. [/QUOTE] I’m sure the country that hangs teenagers for being gay and stones women for being raped will be quite gentle when questioning suspected spies. I’m quite shocked at the way in which people are making Iran out to be the whiter than white victims here. I trust Iran far less than I trust Blair or Bush, and I hardly trust them. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/122 "2007-03-26T23:05:43Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Now the Iranians are talking about [charging the sailors as spies.](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0703260163mar26,1,6377638.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed) [/QUOTE] Told ya so. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/123 "2007-03-26T23:12:13Z")
[QUOTE=Szlater] I’m sure the country that hangs teenagers for being gay and stones women for being raped will be quite gentle when questioning suspected spies. [/QUOTE] The difference is, the Iranians know damned well they are going to have to hand the “spies” over to British officials sooner or later, after all the posturing and negotiations. Can’t be giving them any nasty tales to tell about their treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2007, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/124 "2007-03-26T23:26:37Z")
[QUOTE=Szlater] I’m sure the country that hangs teenagers for being gay and stones women for being raped will be quite gentle when questioning suspected spies. I’m quite shocked at the way in which people are making Iran out to be the whiter than white victims here. I trust Iran far less than I trust Blair or Bush, and I hardly trust them. [/QUOTE] My post was about the difficulties inherent with translated text, not a soap box for you to preach from. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/125 "2007-03-27T10:33:00Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] You’re high on speculation and completely lacking in evidence, which makes your commentary here a bit ironic. Obviously the President of France disagrees with this assessment, which is actually an assessment which is of importance in the geopolitical landscape. There’s nothing like a bold move from Iran like this which violates hundreds of years of diplomatic conventions to move the Western world closer together and create an “us versus them” atmosphere. [/QUOTE] The USA practices torture. Therefore the presumption lies on my side not yours. If you want to claim the USA does not mistreat prisoners in its secret prisons it is up to you to provide sound evidence for the sudden change of heart. The USA has forfeited its right to any presumption of innocence under Bush. Chirac knows squat and as you keep ignoring - the USA routinely kidnaps people from the streets of Europe and renders them to friendly allied torturers, and currently stands accused of the kidnapping of 3 Iranian generals and a bunch of Iranians in Iraq. On past evidence Iran will release the British after some posturing. On the same evidence the Iranians will vanish for years only to appear as broken men before kangaroo courts confessing to everything from the Temptation of Adam to the cancelling of Star Trek. And this is the biggest crime of Bush and Blair - lowering our moral standards and standing to such a level that it makes a medieval fundamentalist regime look good by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/126 "2007-03-27T10:46:23Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Just where do you get all this pablum? IOW, provide a cite and quit making the hamsters work overtime. And take the blinders off if at all possible, you advance nothing through your biased views and groundless insults. [/QUOTE] Well, when the USA were about to invade Afghanistan, the Iranians offered to help with any downed pilots. Also Iranian General(s) were talking to the USA and they said that they were using the same military manuals left in 1979. I got that from the BBC World Service Also the Northern Alliance speak Farsi - and really do not like the Taliban. You’ll probably also remember that after 9/11 there was a ‘spontaneous’ demonstration in Tehran **in sympathy with the USA** Unfortunately Bush’s Axis of Drivel speech rather upset them. @ **Elsie** I’m curious, do you suspect that statements are being deliberately mistranslated ? @ **All** Well it seems that the Iranians have hit on examining the GSM equipment to see where the boats had been. Quite a good idea 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/127 "2007-03-27T11:04:12Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] @ **Elsie** I’m curious, do you suspect that statements are being deliberately mistranslated ? [/QUOTE] My presumption is everyone has an agenda, so from the pov of the translator it might be your own or your employers overtly political agenda, it might simply be to ‘sex’ up a translation in order to get it and you a higher profile within your translation community, and therefore more work. Also, if I was in Intell, and given the worldwide media impact of so-called translated phrases such as “wiping Israel off the face of the map” I wouldn’t be doing my job if you didn’t try to manipulate at source. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/128 "2007-03-27T11:11:33Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] The USA practices torture. Therefore the presumption lies on my side not yours. If you want to claim the USA does not mistreat prisoners in its secret prisons it is up to you to provide sound evidence for the sudden change of heart. The USA has forfeited its right to any presumption of innocence under Bush. Chirac knows squat and as you keep ignoring - the USA routinely kidnaps people from the streets of Europe and renders them to friendly allied torturers, and currently stands accused of the kidnapping of 3 Iranian generals and a bunch of Iranians in Iraq. On past evidence Iran will release the British after some posturing. On the same evidence the Iranians will vanish for years only to appear as broken men before kangaroo courts confessing to everything from the Temptation of Adam to the cancelling of Star Trek. And this is the biggest crime of Bush and Blair - lowering our moral standards and standing to such a level that it makes a medieval fundamentalist regime look good by comparison. [/QUOTE] The torture bit is strange, I can’t see the use of waterboarding except for circumstances where the results are immediately verifiable - like where is that bomb planted. The only kidnapping that I can think of on the street in Europe was in Italy, my impression is that the majority of non Afghan detainees were picked up by third parties and sold to the USA. I’ve a feeling that this torture stuff is black propaganda, if I were an Egyptian I would not be much worried by a spell in Gitmo, but I would be terrified of being handed over to the Egyptians. I suspect that some sort of convoluted thinking is behind _what seems like too much info_ on the subject. We are not sure that the generals were kidnapped, but if they were, I would expect them to be treated pretty well, show trials don’t go down well in the West and there is a huge settled Iranian community in the USA. I thoroughly agree that ‘lowering moral standards’ is disgusting, and is sure to backfire. It reminds me of the phrase of Nietzsche |_He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you._| > **[Friedrich Nietzsche Quotes - The Quotations Page](https://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Friedrich_Nietzsche/)** A pretty canny guy ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/129 "2007-03-27T11:20:34Z")
[QUOTE=Elsie] My presumption is everyone has an agenda, so from the pov of the translator it might be your own or your employers overtly political agenda, it might simply be to ‘sex’ up a translation in order to get it and you a higher profile within your translation community, and therefore more work. Also, if I was in Intell, and given the worldwide media impact of so-called translated phrases such as “wiping Israel off the face of the map” I wouldn’t be doing my job if you didn’t try to manipulate at source. [/QUOTE] But against that, the Guardian is quite capable of employing translators, so lurid versions would be counteracted by factual versions. Warping commonly available information tends to discredit the source. Similarly forged documents from ‘Niger’ and ‘discovered’ documents from Iraq make future discoveries suspect, even if genuine. Ahmadinejad does say some pretty wacky things, mind you so does Bush … ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/130 "2007-03-27T11:24:52Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] But against that, the Guardian is quite capable of employing translators [/QUOTE] Hardly ever, and most media don’t at all. They all rely on exactly the same Agency AP / Reuters sources - not just UK/USA, but the world over. Cheap, efficient, and who the hell knows any better anyway. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/131 "2007-03-27T11:41:39Z")
[QUOTE=Elsie] Hardly ever, and most media don’t at all. They all rely on exactly the same Agency AP / Reuters sources - not just UK/USA, but the world over. Cheap, efficient, and who the hell knows any better anyway. [/QUOTE] Ok, but the BBC Worldwide is heaving with translators. You’re suggesting a sort of conspiracy theory, but conspiracies normally break down after more than one person is involved. However, I can think of a similar example. DeAnne Julius was appointed to the UK Monetary Policy Committee and got a grilling from a House of Commons subcomittee. Acording to the papers she got angry .. yadda yadda - but I heard the exchange on the radio, and the papers were wrong. I assumed that nobody bothered to correct the thing was because one of the main reasons why she was hired was because she was ex-CIA I suppose you know that Edward Heath actually said: ‘the unacceptable facet of capitalism’. Oh to be famous for something one never said 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/132 "2007-03-27T11:54:45Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] The torture bit is strange, I can’t see the use of waterboarding except for circumstances where the results are immediately verifiable - like where is that bomb planted. The only kidnapping that I can think of on the street in Europe was in Italy, my impression is that the majority of non Afghan detainees were picked up by third parties and sold to the USA. I’ve a feeling that this torture stuff is black propaganda, if I were an Egyptian I would not be much worried by a spell in Gitmo, but I would be terrified of being handed over to the Egyptians. I suspect that some sort of convoluted thinking is behind _what seems like too much info_ on the subject. We are not sure that the generals were kidnapped, but if they were, I would expect them to be treated pretty well, show trials don’t go down well in the West and there is a huge settled Iranian community in the USA. I thoroughly agree that ‘lowering moral standards’ is disgusting, and is sure to backfire. It reminds me of the phrase of Nietzsche |_He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you._| > **[Friedrich Nietzsche Quotes - The Quotations Page](https://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Friedrich_Nietzsche/)** A pretty canny guy [/QUOTE] Your knowledge of the extraordinary rendition programme is sadly limited it seems. Part of it involves being handed over to the Egyptians among others for torture. Do you want to try [Masri](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4504292.stm) for starters? It’s a very well-known case. Judging from the certainty with which you state your opnions I’d have assumed you were familiar with it. Apparently not. How about [the Marty investigation?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4641810.stm) > [@](#): > > In his report, he said “rendition” - the secret transport of prisoners via Europe to third countries where they may have been tortured - seemed to have affected more than 100 people in recent years. The facts had “not even been denied”, he said. Your unjustified faith in what now passes for american justice however, is extremely impressive. There is no grounds whatsoever for believing they will be treated well and every reason to believe, as [the EU report](http://bringdavidhickshome.org/files/Alleged%20use%20of%20European%20countries%20by%20the%20CIA%20for%20the%20transportation%20and%20illegal%20detention%20of%20prisoners%20report.pdf) among countless other pieces of information shows, they will be tortured. And I’m so happy you are sanguine about vanishing for years into the Gitmo memory hole to face a kangaroo court after 5 years if you are lucky. You’ll forgive the rest of the world if we disagree. At the moment you are just pissing into the howling presumptive gale. We know the US holds many prisoners without trial, we know they are tortured and we know they hold the Iranians claimed to be diplomats. We know 3 generals have gone missing and there are no grounds for assuming they just vanished into thin air. At the moment the Iranians are angels compared to us. We have no reason to believe our troops will be harmed. The last lot were released. But we have every reason to believe anyone who falls into Uncle Sam’s claws will be held without trial in a network of secret prisons and tortured. I loathe the Iranian regime and I particularly loathe the fact we’ve ceded them the moral high ground but there’s no point us getting hysterical about the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/133 "2007-03-27T12:07:14Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] You’re suggesting a sort of conspiracy theory, but conspiracies normally break down after more than one person is involved. [/QUOTE] Not a conspiracy imo - manipulation of media to your advantage is standard practice and policy the world over. Alistair Campbell wasn’t a ‘conspiracy’, I don’t think he was anyway . . . ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/134 "2007-03-27T12:46:48Z")
I don’t have that much faith in American justice, but I don’t have much faith in justice. The David Hicks stuff is a bit bizarre, I can understand a Roo hunter landing up in Afghanistan, but why he stayed in Gitmo for five years baffles me. Anyway, he is off home to Australia to finish his sentence - which will be in a remarkably open prison. Probably he was tortured with cold tinnies. What interests me is that we all know too much about torture, we know about the white planes, we know names and places. I think there is an element of FUD going on. Those Iranian generals are really interesting, we don’t know if they were kidnapped or whether they defected - we don’t know whether the Iranians shot them and stuck them in a mineshaft. However my arithmetic goes: a general will be about 55 years, 2007 minus 1979 equals 28 years. 55 minus 28 = 27 years. Ergo, around the fall of the Shah they were 27 years old, and would have held rank of captain to major. That means that they were USA or British trained - either explicitly or by others who were. If they are in USA hands then they are probably chewing the fat with old friends, possibly their old classmates from 1970. Anyway, I agree with you, torture and brutality are pointless (except for very immediate circumstances) there are subtler chemical and psychological ways of getting people to talk, ranging from whisky to a hypodermic. Although the Witness Protection Scheme, while expensive, is very effective. What annoys me is that a few years ago, the then Iranian regime was looking pretty good. I award GWB the Nobel Prize for War ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/135 "2007-03-27T14:11:19Z")
[Doubt cast by Iraqi commander](http://cbs4.com/national/topstories_story_083091559.html) on British story. > [@](#): > > The Iraqi military commander of the country’s territorial waters cast doubt on claims the Britons were in Iraqi waters. > > “We were informed by Iraqi fishermen after they had returned from sea that there were British gunboats in an area that is out of Iraqi control,” Brig. Gen. Hakim Jassim told AP Television News in the southern city of Basra. > > “We don’t know why they were there. And these British troops were besieged by unknown gunboats, I don’t know from where,” he said. [Craig Murray, a former UK diplomat who got in trouble for being anti-torture opines:](http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/) > [@](#): > > Before the spin doctors could get to him, Commodore Lambert said: > > “There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they were in Iraqi territorial waters. Equally, the Iranians may well claim that they were in their territorial waters. The extent and definition of territorial waters in this part of the world is very complicated”. > > That is precisely right. The boundary between Iran and Iraq in the northern Persian Gulf has never been fixed. (Within the Shatt-al-Arab itself a line was fixed, but was to be updated every ten years because the waterway shifts, according to the treaty. As it has not been updated in over twenty years, whether it is still valid is a moot point. But it appears this incident occurred well south of the Shatt anyway.) This is a perfectly legitimate dispute. The existence of this dispute will clearly be indicated on HMS Cornwall’s charts, which are in front of Commodore Lambert, but not of Mr Blair. > > Until a boundary is agreed, you could only be certain that the personnel were in Iraqi territorial waters if they were within twelve miles of the coast and, at the same time, more than twelve miles from any island, spit, bar or sandbank claimed by Iran (or Kuwait). > > That is very hard to judge as the British government refuse to give out the coordinates where the men were captured. If they really are utterly certain, I find that incomprehensible. Everyone knows the Gulf is teeming with British vessels and personnel, so the position of units a few days ago can hardly be valuable intelligence. > [@](#): > > Massive volumes have been written on the prinicples behind these negotiations, but they tend to ignore the fact that ultimately it has to come down to political negotiating skills between a vast range of justifiable possible agreements. That is why we just can’t know where the boundary is between Iran and Iraq in this area, which has enough sandbanks to keep me happy thinking about it for centuries. If either side needs a negotiator… > > Anyway, the UK was plainly wrong to be ultra provocative in disputed waters. They would be allowed to enter Iranian territorial seas in hot pursuit of terrorists, pirates or slavers, but not to carry out other military operations. > > The Iranians had a right to detain the men if they were in seas legitimately claimed as territorial by Iran. Indeed, it is arguable that if a government makes a claim of sovereignty it rather has to enforce it, possession being nine parts of international law. But now the Iranian government is being very foolish, and itself acting illegally, by not releasing the men having made its point. > > The story leaked by Russian intelligence claiming knowledge of US plans to attack Iran on 6 April has had great publicity in Iran, if very little here. Personally I doubt it is true. But it seems to me a definite risk that the Iranians will decide to keep the marines against that contingency. As the border in the shatt al arab waterway is in dispute the most likely thing is the UK people strayed accidentally across a line on an Iranian map. It’s probably a very easy thing to do if a line is as hazy as the 1975 line later repudiated by Iraq. Due to all the other shit being dealt out to them in the form of kidnappings, arrests and accusations of interference in Iraq, (plus the nuke issue) some aspects of the Iranian power structure seized on the accident to make a point. Sooner or later the mullahs will bang heads together and they will be released unharmed. They will do so to score points with the Iraq govt which is asking for their release. So long as no one does anything stupid in the meantime. [US Navy in show of force off Iran coast](http://cbs4.com/national/topstories_story_086055555.html) [US military strike on Iran seen by April ’07; Sea-launched attack to hit oil, N-sites](http://www.arabtimesonline.com/arabtimes/kuwait/Viewdet.asp?ID=9548&cat=a) > [@](#): > > KUWAIT CITY: Washington will launch a military strike on Iran before April 2007, say sources. The attack will be launched from the sea and Patriot missiles will guard all oil-producing countries in the region, they add. Recent statements emanating from the United States indicate the Bush administration’s new strategy for Iraq doesn’t include any proposal to make a compromise or negotiate with Syria or Iran. A reliable source said President Bush recently held a meeting with Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Robert Gates, Secretary of State Dr Condoleezza Rice and other assistants in the White House where they discussed the plan to attack Iran in minute detail. I doubt this is true. The same story surfaces every March but I bet, given the US Naval build-up, elements of the Iranian power structure aren’t willing to take a chance on Bush’s judgement. Regardless, they should release the sailors. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/136 "2007-03-27T14:12:26Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] I award GWB the Nobel Prize for War [/QUOTE] To go with his Pulitzer for Stupidity. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/137 "2007-03-27T14:47:08Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] Well, when the USA were about to invade Afghanistan, the Iranians offered to help with any downed pilots. Also Iranian General(s) were talking to the USA and they said that they were using the same military manuals left in 1979. I got that from the BBC World Service Also the Northern Alliance speak Farsi - and really do not like the Taliban. You’ll probably also remember that after 9/11 there was a ‘spontaneous’ demonstration in Tehran **in sympathy with the USA** Unfortunately Bush’s Axis of Drivel speech rather upset them. [/QUOTE] Right. Quite a lot’s happened since. In fact, I’m sure you’ll recall it wasn’t just Tehran that held vigils and solidarity demonstrations for the 9/11 tragegy – it was largely a world-wide movement of empathy…long gone by now due to the US of A’s subsequent actions (read: Iraq) But like I said, a lt has happened since – especially the openly belligerent stance of BushCo’s USA vs Iran. In light of which, again, I call your statement saying that “Iranian Generals were quite well dispositioned towards the USA” delusional. Especially in light of the fact that it is more than likely they were kidnapped – guess that would tend to sour one’s disposition; it it wasn’t already. Thus if they weren’t traitors – and as of now there’s no factual information that would point that way – as high-ranking members of the Iranian armed forces they might be more than a little bit PO’d. And please, as **tagos** has just shown you, I’d ask you to inform yourself a bit better before you come in here calling citizens of other nations “thick as pig-shit,” for your own ignorance on the topic at hand might lead some to come to the same conclusion about your own countrymen and women. Fortunately, we have a ton of posts from same that clearly belie such a moronic stance. Would that we also had some Palestinians and Iraqis on-board to dispel you of said misconceptions and/or overt racism about them. Good day. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/138 "2007-03-27T18:07:09Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] The USA practices torture. Therefore the presumption lies on my side not yours. If you want to claim the USA does not mistreat prisoners in its secret prisons it is up to you to provide sound evidence for the sudden change of heart. The USA has forfeited its right to any presumption of innocence under Bush. Chirac knows squat and as you keep ignoring - the USA routinely kidnaps people from the streets of Europe and renders them to friendly allied torturers, and currently stands accused of the kidnapping of 3 Iranian generals and a bunch of Iranians in Iraq. On past evidence Iran will release the British after some posturing. On the same evidence the Iranians will vanish for years only to appear as broken men before kangaroo courts confessing to everything from the Temptation of Adam to the cancelling of Star Trek. And this is the biggest crime of Bush and Blair - lowering our moral standards and standing to such a level that it makes a medieval fundamentalist regime look good by comparison. [/QUOTE] What in the name of god are you talking about? You made an assertion that the Iranians being held by the United States are being “waterboarded half to death.” you provided absolutely no evidence to support that claim. Saying, “the U.S. tortures people” in general in no way proves a specific claim, you can’t use as proof of a specific claim a general claim not relating to the actual case at hand. It honestly seems like to me you’re just trying to spout of a laundry list of criticisms of the United States that honestly doesn’t have much to do with this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/139 "2007-03-27T21:16:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Also the Northern Alliance speak Farsi - and really do not like the Taliban. No shit, the Northern Alliance speak Dari, which is related to Persian and to a lesser extent, Uzbeka Turkic language. The Hazaras of eastern Afghanistan, located around Herat, speak Farsi. ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166/140 "2007-03-27T21:21:49Z")
You say Darsi, I say Farsi, lets call the whole thing off ! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iranian-military-seizes-15-british-sailors-in-iraqi-waters/397166.md?page=8)