# Iraq - a lesson from history **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2008, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224 "2008-12-15T09:08:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SomeBodyUK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@SomeBodyUK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SomeBodyUK)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/1 "2008-12-15T09:08:27Z")
Watch this video - the last part is partcularly prescient. [Iraq presents a lesson from History](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7774888.stm) Do you think Bush & Co were aware of this? ---
**Author:** ![sinical\_brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/48db29/32.png) [@sinical\_brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinical_brit)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/2 "2008-12-15T13:15:14Z")
I thought this sentence was great: "As things fell apart, anger and opposition to the Iraq venture grew in London. But Bell didn’t shirk the blame. “The underlying truth of all criticism is… that we had promised self-governing institutions and not only made no step towards them but were busily setting up something entirely different.” ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/3 "2008-12-15T15:27:24Z")
I find it amusing that the news agency which employs the guy who threw his shoes at Bush is demanding his release and not apologising. To pretend the Iraqi people are now so happy with what America did. The whole thing is so ridiculous. For a while the America commanders were calling the insurgents “anti-Iraqi forces” and the Americans and their allies were “pro-Iraqi forces”. The whole thing was so ridiculous and confusing it did not last long but it just goes to show the level of stupidity that governed the whole invasion. General after general as they retire become critics. Also, remember the “[new Iraqi flag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Proposed_flag_of_Iraq.svg)” of 2004 which resembled the Israeli flag and which was later quietly abandoned? I mean, WTF were those guys thinking? The whole thing has been a SNAFU from day one. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/4 "2008-12-15T21:55:36Z")
> [@](#): > > [BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iraq translators' mask ban dropped](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7768041.stm) > > The Pentagon has rescinded a controversial decision that banned Iraqi interpreters working for US troops in Baghdad from protecting their identities by wearing ski-masks. > > “If anyone of my neighbours see me with this uniform I will get killed,” said an interpreter working with the US 4-10 Cavalry Regiment, which patrols a large part of western Baghdad. > > “Maybe they will kill my family. That’s the issue”, he added. Wonderful. Working with the Americans is a death sentence. That’s how much they like Americans in Iraq. And as a bonus they’ll also kill your family. > [@](#): > > About 30 interpreters work with the 300 troops from a large camp that used to be a luxury shopping mall. That’s the normality of life in Iraq today. What used to be a luxury shopping mall is now an American military camp. Wonderful. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/5 "2008-12-15T22:31:03Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > The whole thing has been a SNAFU from day one. [You have no idea.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=497593) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/6 "2008-12-15T22:40:36Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Wonderful. Working with the Americans is a death sentence. That’s how much they like Americans in Iraq. And as a bonus they’ll also kill your family. I don’t see what this demonstrates. The Anti-American faction wants to kill people who help the Americans, whereas the Pro-American faction wants to work and help Americans. You seem to think that’s somehow significant whereas I see it as being pretty intrinsic to an occupied land. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/7 "2008-12-15T22:42:57Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I don’t see what this demonstrates. The Anti-American faction wants to kill people who help the Americans, whereas the Pro-American faction wants to work and help Americans. You seem to think that’s somehow significant whereas I see it as being pretty intrinsic to an occupied land. We somehow managed to escape it, for the most part, in occupied Germany and Japan. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/8 "2008-12-15T23:00:05Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I don’t see what this demonstrates. The Anti-American faction wants to kill people who help the Americans, whereas the Pro-American faction wants to work and help Americans. You seem to think that’s somehow significant whereas I see it as being pretty intrinsic to an occupied land. As the translator says, the Americans will leave and he has to stay. Once the Americans leave there will be no “pro-Americans” in Iraq. None. There will only be degrees of anti-Americanism. The few “pro-Americans” today are just risking their lives in exchange for wages to feed their families. They are a tiny minority. In other news the shoe thrower has become a national hero. > [@](#): > > [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081215/ap\_on\_re\_mi\_ea/ml\_iraq\_shoe\_tosser](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081215/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq_shoe_tosser) > > The Iraqi TV reporter who hurled his shoes at George W. Bush was kidnapped once by militants and, separately, detained briefly by the U.S. military. Over time, Muntadhar al-Zeidi, a 28-year-old unmarried Shiite, came to hate both the U.S. military occupation and Iran’s interference in Iraq > > Al-Zeidi’s act of defiance Sunday transformed an obscure reporter from a minor TV station into a national hero to many Iraqis fed up with the nearly six-year U.S. presence here > > Several thousand people demonstrated in Baghdad and other cities to demand al-Zeidi’s release. The attack was the talk of the town in coffee shops, business offices and even schools — and a subject across much of the Arab world. A charity run by the daughter of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi bestowed a medal of courage on al-Zeidi, calling on the Iraqi government to free him > … > A geography teacher at a Baghdad elementary school asked her students if they had seen the footage of the shoe-throwing. “All Iraqis should be proud of this Iraqi brave man, Muntadhar. History will remember him forever,” she said. > > “He hates the American physical occupation as much as he hates the Iranian moral occupation,” ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/9 "2008-12-15T23:34:06Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Also, remember the “[new Iraqi flag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Proposed_flag_of_Iraq.svg)” of 2004 which resembled the Israeli flag and which was later quietly abandoned? I mean, WTF were those guys thinking? . The proposed flag looked nothing at all like the flag of Israel. Seriously, look at them: > **[Flag of Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Israel)** > > The flag of Israel\[a\] was officially adopted on 28 October 1948. It is a white banner with three blue (tekhelet) symbols: a pair of horizontal tallit-like stripes above and below a centred Star of David. Relevant Israeli legislation describes the flag's dimensions as 160 cm (63 in) by 220 cm (87 in), thereby fixing the proportion to a ratio of 8:11. But variants can be found at a wide range of proportions, with 2:3 also common. > **[File:Proposed flag of Iraq (Coalition Provisional Authority, 2004).svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Proposed_flag_of_Iraq.svg)** > > The original design of the flag was funded by the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), who would have been the copyright owner. The CPA was funded by the U.S. Congress $18 billion on the basis it was a federal agency, and the CPA itself asserted that "its sector program management offices (SPMOs) were part of the federal government." > العربية | English | 日本語 | 中文 | Español | +/− > As such, works published by citizens of these countries in these countries are usually not subject to copyright prot... People got all pissy because it lacked the typical green,blacks and reds of the mideast flags, and started grasping at straws in order to rationalize it. There was as much in common between the flags as the US and the former USSR. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/10 "2008-12-15T23:36:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > We somehow managed to escape it, for the most part, in occupied Germany and Japan. Somehow…cough..Dresden…Cough…Nagasaki. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/11 "2008-12-16T00:07:26Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I don’t see what this demonstrates. The Anti-American faction wants to kill people who help the Americans, whereas the Pro-American faction wants to work and help Americans. You seem to think that’s somehow significant whereas I see it as being pretty intrinsic to an occupied land. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > We somehow managed to escape it, for the most part, in occupied Germany and Japan. This reminded me that during the civil war it was folly for a Salvadorean to advertise that he or she was working for US military advisers in El Salvador\*; however AFAICR it is telling that the few translators and other people that worked for the military US advisers in El Salvador during the civil war did not have to go to the extremes the Iraqis have to. \*The administration has mentioned that they are using an “El Salvador option” in Iraq (yes, that included putting US diplomats in Iraq that “coincidentally” also looked the other way when death squads appeared in El Salvador and now in Iraq). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/12 "2008-12-16T00:35:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Somehow…cough..Dresden…Cough…Nagasaki. I think he was referring to Iraqis that continue to show so much hatred for the occupiers that even after 6 years the majority of the people still want you out and a good chunk supports violent methods against us. After 6 years the Japanese and Germans already knew that it was better to be occupied by the USA, not only because of the capable administration of them after the war by the USA, but because the other choice was to be occupied by the USSR. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/13 "2008-12-16T00:58:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Somehow…cough..Dresden…Cough…Nagasaki. And it was the former leadership that got much of the blame for those. The Japanese and the Germans knew that they started the war, not us. As opposed to the Iraqis, who know this is purely a war of aggression; they know that nothing Saddam did or said could have stopped us. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/14 "2008-12-16T09:45:20Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > The proposed flag looked nothing at all like the flag of Israel. Seriously, look at them: > [Flag of Israel - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Israel) > [File:Proposed flag of Iraq (Coalition Provisional Authority, 2004).svg - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Proposed_flag_of_Iraq.svg) > > People got all pissy because it lacked the typical green,blacks and reds of the mideast flags, and started grasping at straws in order to rationalize it. > > There was as much in common between the flags as the US and the former USSR. Who’s trying to rationalize here? The fact is that the Iraqis did not like it and that it had to be very quietly abandoned. It was a faux pas of colossal proportions. You can say all you want but the Iraqis hated it. > [@](#): > > [Flag of Iraq - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Iraq) > > The design marked a notable break with the colours used in most other Arab flags, which have lengthy histories—green and black are used to represent Islam and red is used to represent Arab nationalism. Islamic crescents are usually depicted in green or red in Arab heraldry. **The new flag’s predominantly blue-on-white appearance immediately led to controversy in Iraq because of its resemblance to the flag of Israel, with whom Iraq has had considerable antagonism.** Other critics lamented the omission of the traditional colours of Pan-Arabism and the omission of the phrase Allahu Akbar. > > The new flag was reported to have been burned by insurgents in Fallujah on 27 April 2004, the day before its planned official adoption. > > On 28 April 2004, Governing Council President Massoud Barzani formally presented a modified version of the flag in which the originally very light shade of blue as reported by the press on 26 April 2004 had been changed to a darker tone; it was unclear whether this was a change made because of the protests made against the original design or, as the Council claimed, a rectification of printing errors in the earlier news reports. He also explained that the flag was a temporary design, to be used over the ensuing months until the adoption of a definitive flag. > > In the face of the controversy, adoption of the blue crescent flag was abandoned. At the handover ceremony on 28 June 2004 a slightly modified version of the 1991 flag was used, retaining the Allahu akbar but with a stylized script replacing the handwriting. The whole thing was marked by the huge amounts of ignorance, stupidity and arrogance which have been the mark of the entire fiasco. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/15 "2008-12-16T10:34:45Z")
“[Instructions for American Servicemen in Iraq During World War II](http://papercuts.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/you-win-this-war-by-drinking-tea/).” We had a cheat sheet, we just forgot to bring it: \*Lt. Col. NAGL: Some very simple dos and don’ts. Don’t make approaches toward Arabic women. Don’t invade mosques or invade the space of mosques. Don’t talk about religion or culture. But also some dos. Do respect the tribal relationships that exist in Iraq. Do respect the qualities of the Arabs, not necessarily as conventional fighters, but as guerilla warfare specialists. And I was struck by how little has changed in the 60 years since this book was written. NORRIS: In the foreword to the book, you write it’s almost impossible, when reading this guide, not to slap oneself on the forehead in despair, that the Army knew so much of Arabic culture and customs 60 years ago. Lt. Col. NAGL: One really wishes that we’d have this book in our breast pockets when we arrived in Iraq in September of 2003. We learned on the ground things about Ramadan, for instance, and customs and courtesies during Ramadan the - that this book had, and that were sitting on a library shelf somewhere that I would’ve given my eye and teeth for to have had, well, when I actually really needed it.\* ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-a-lesson-from-history/477224/16 "2008-12-16T14:05:44Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > “[Instructions for American Servicemen in Iraq During World War II](http://papercuts.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/you-win-this-war-by-drinking-tea/).” > > We had a cheat sheet, we just forgot to bring it: > > \*Lt. Col. NAGL: Some very simple dos and don’ts. Don’t make approaches toward Arabic women. Don’t invade mosques or invade the space of mosques. Don’t talk about religion or culture. But also some dos. Do respect the tribal relationships that exist in Iraq. Do respect the qualities of the Arabs, not necessarily as conventional fighters, but as guerilla warfare specialists. And I was struck by how little has changed in the 60 years since this book was written. > > NORRIS: In the foreword to the book, you write it’s almost impossible, when reading this guide, not to slap oneself on the forehead in despair, that the Army knew so much of Arabic culture and customs 60 years ago. > > Lt. Col. NAGL: One really wishes that we’d have this book in our breast pockets when we arrived in Iraq in September of 2003. We learned on the ground things about Ramadan, for instance, and customs and courtesies during Ramadan the - that this book had, and that were sitting on a library shelf somewhere that I would’ve given my eye and teeth for to have had, well, when I actually really needed it.\* Once again, America learns a hard and bitter lesson in the military value of good librarians, and, more importantly, of actually thinking to **use** them.