# Iraq and Comparisons to Vietnam... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2003, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-and-comparisons-to-vietnam/211800 "2003-11-07T00:28:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-and-comparisons-to-vietnam/211800/141 "2003-11-16T21:12:14Z")
“The Gulf of Tonkin incident that launched the Vietnam misadventure in earnest turned out to be a fiction, so too had the deceptive dossiers on Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction. The first was an excuse to pour Washington’s coffers into the military-industrial complex, the latter to cook up sweetheart deals for Haliburton, Vice-President Dick Cheney’s former employer.” [http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/11/08/1068243302641.html?from=storyrhs](http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/11/08/1068243302641.html?from=storyrhs) ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-and-comparisons-to-vietnam/211800/142 "2003-11-16T22:07:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > \*\*It is the US with a proven track record [of implementing democracies], and not the UN. > \*\* Name 'em Milum. Go on, point 'em out. The people of Germany were a democracy prior to WW2 - they even legally voted Hitler into power so implementing democracy into West Germany after WW2 was no great brain job. And Japan? 50 years on? It still has yet to truly evolve into a genuine two party democratic nation state. It’s a country where corporate cronyism is balanced perfectly against nationalism. So go on… name 'em. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-and-comparisons-to-vietnam/211800/143 "2003-11-16T22:21:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > It is the US with a proven track record [of implementing democracies], and not the UN. Well, not really. You could also say much more accurately it is the USA who has a proven record of implementing dictatorships or to meddling in other country’s business. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-and-comparisons-to-vietnam/211800/144 "2003-11-16T22:41:47Z")
Trujillo, Samoza, Reza Pahlavi, Syngman Rhee, Pinochet, Uguartem, Duvalier, Marcos, Sukarno, Deim, Nhu, and the list of “democracies” nurtured and fostered by the US goes on, and on, and on… Are we about to add the name “Chalabi” to the list? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-and-comparisons-to-vietnam/211800/145 "2003-11-16T22:51:55Z")
Nah. The others were actually able to run their countries, after a fashion. Put Chalabi on the list with the guy Teddy R. installed to run Panama after the “revolution”. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-and-comparisons-to-vietnam/211800/146 "2003-11-16T23:33:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > **Er, the UN has not been that successful. The UN had nothing to do with the republics of Yugoslavia except for Bosnia and Kosovo, both of which STILL are not fully self-governing. In Kosovo, it’s not even partially self-governing after five years.** How many foreign troops have been killed in Bosnia or Kosovo since the end of major operations was declared? So what if they’re not yet fully self-governing? For the last five years they’ve had a steady _and peaceful_ progression towards it. Nation-building takes time. And what’s the latest I hear about U.S. troops in Iraq? “Out by July…” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-and-comparisons-to-vietnam/211800/147 "2003-11-17T01:08:38Z")
From hansel > [@](#): > > So what if they’re not yet fully self-governing? For the last five years they’ve had a steady and peaceful progression towards it. Nation-building takes time. And what’s the latest I hear about U.S. troops in Iraq? \*\*“Out by July…”[/B[ You have a cite for this? The last **I** heard was that we were turning over the GOVERNMENT to them by June…but that there are no plans to bring home our troops at that time. If you have a cite saying differently, I’d be interested in seeing it. -XT ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-and-comparisons-to-vietnam/211800/148 "2003-11-17T12:09:37Z")
Almost all those dictatorships we supported are today democracies. Gee, I wonder why? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-and-comparisons-to-vietnam/211800/149 "2003-11-17T13:55:07Z")
No US troops died in Bosnia and Kosovo after “cease fire”… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-and-comparisons-to-vietnam/211800/150 "2003-11-17T14:19:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\*Almost all those dictatorships we supported are today democracies. > > Gee, I wonder why? \*\* "Guatemalans who voted in presidential elections last week should be congratulated for thwarting the comeback bid of one of the country’s most brutal former military dictators, Gen. Efraín Ríos Montt. During his 18 months in power in the early 1980’s, thousands of Mayan Indian peasants were slaughtered by soldiers moving against left-wing guerrillas. His crushing electoral defeat is a welcome sign of health for a fragile democracy. The brutality of Mr. Ríos Montt’s rule and his continuing political ambitions made him emblematic of the military dictators who intermittently ruled Guatemala during the more than three decades of civil war that followed a C.I.A.-sponsored coup in the early 1950’s. The traumas Guatemalan society endured during that time almost defy imagination. The cumulative toll of military repression amounted to some 200,000 deaths, 50,000 disappearances and the uprooting of 500,000 people. Hundreds of rural Mayan Indian communities were destroyed, along with much of Guatemala’s surviving indigenous culture. All that in a country that barely numbers 14 million people." [http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/17/opinion/17MON3.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/17/opinion/17MON3.html) "…Reagan personally picked up this theme of a falsely accused Guatemalan military. During a swing through Latin America, Reagan discounted the mounting reports of hundreds of Maya villages being eradicated. On Dec. 4, 1982, after meeting with Guatemala’s dictator, Gen. Efrain Rios Montt, Reagan hailed the general as “totally dedicated to democracy.” Reagan declared that Rios Montt’s government had been “getting a bum rap.”…" "…In March 1982, Gen. Rios Montt seized power. An avowed fundamentalist Christian, he immediately impressed Washington. Reagan hailed Rios Montt as “a man of great personal integrity…” [http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Ronald\_Reagan/Reagan\_Guatemala.html](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Ronald_Reagan/Reagan_Guatemala.html) "…Washington was openly supportive of Rios Montt’s dictatorship. In December 1982, then-U.S. President Ronald Reagan called him “a man of great personal integrity” who was “getting a bum rap on human rights.” During the interview, he sat next to a black-and-white photo of him sitting with Reagan…" [http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/nation/6955957.htm](http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/nation/6955957.htm) The Guatemalans acheived democracy the same way we did. By revolution. The primary source of support and weapons for the vile and vicious regime was…us. In our name. Keeping Central America safe from the Commies. Any questions? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2003, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-and-comparisons-to-vietnam/211800/151 "2003-11-17T23:20:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > Almost all those dictatorships we supported are today democracies. > > Gee, I wonder why? No thanks to US help. In Chile I believe the daughter of Salvador Allende is now the Speaker of the House and there have been unsuccessful attempts to prosecute the US backed dictator, Pinochet, for his crimes against humanity but it has all happened in spite of the USA, not with their help. One of the main reasons was the fall of the Soviet Union and the relaxation of international tensions but you can see that whenever the USA feels it is in their interest it will back the cruelest dictators. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-and-comparisons-to-vietnam/211800.md?page=7)