Stunning.
Wow, that make anyone else’s brain hurt?
You forgot to point out how this time we’ve got God on our side.
Oh, sorry, G o d .
-Joe, who will never understand fanaticism…
Just to be specific, you mean spring 2004, right?
And by spring you mean before the beginning of July, but after then end of February?
And how will we recognize this manifestation? What will it consist of, and how will we recognize it?
Can you answer these?
If we are to judge by the way things are going I wouldn’t be so sure. That or God has been losing power lately. Maybe the motto should be changed from “In God We Trust” to “God Trusts the USA”.
I believe partitioning Iraq would lead to a huge regional instability and to the extension of the war to neighboring countries, not to mention massacres of minorities unlucky enough to be living in the wrong neighborhood.
Pulling out of Iraq is not an option as it would lead to civil war and, probably, an extension of the conflict.
Maintaining iraq together is going to be one tough cookie to chew for the USA. Saddam did it by sheer ruthlessness and the USA may find there is no other way.
In the end, one thing this conflict will probably have in common with Vietnam is that the USA will come out of it wounded. It will have doubts about itself and its power. For two decades after Vietnam America had a serious self-esteem problem and I believe this conflict may lead to very similar consequences. I believe this shot had been better saved for a better ocassion. If the USA is being worn down in Iraq for the next five years, this will weaken the USA in its capacity to act and it will weaken the political resolve of Americans to intervene abroad. This will enbolden China and other powers. Right now China has to be relishing the thought that the USA will be bogged down in Iraq for 5 or 10 years and I have no doubt that the Iraqi resistance will have no shortage of explosives and ammunition.
sailor, I wish I’d have said that. I think this could be a very real consequence. I hope we are wrong about this possibility.
The scariest thing for me, as an Aussie friend and ally of my American friends, is that there seems to be a growing cry within the USA to “simply pull out now”. And if I may, I’d really like to emphasise the “simple” bit in that sentence because, quite frankly, even our good man Elucidator probably agrees, we’re in there now and to pull out would be like undoing the bolts on a jet airliner wing while you’re in flight - a really, really catastrophic thing to do.
What scares me is this - there seem to be so many Americans, so many, many Americans (but thankfully very few of them are here on this messageboard) who foolishly believe that the USA could easily slip back into some utterly isolationist philosophy somewhat similar to the USA in the late 1800’s - and anyone who knows anything about the USA’s trading position, and her need to keep the world’s Oil Supplys nice and steady, nice and steady - well, it’s just plain fantasy that the USA could pull out of Iraq and pretend that it never happened and then, no further incidents would come to visit the USA on her home soil as a result.
I’m wondering how this will pan out in the next Presidential Election race. Will the Democrats offer a Candidate who has an openly isolationist electoral policy based on “Pull Out Now?” - if that were to happen, that would be a real shame for mine. The signals it would send to the world would be so utterly contradictory and equivocational that well, quite frankly the only solution for the USA after that to save any face whatsoever would be to move to another planet.
Now, as for Milum? The Iraqi’s have tasted freedom and they like it? They like it? Iraq is a shithole. It didn’t used to be. It was once the wealthiest nation per capita in the entire region. For 13 years the USA has done every single thing in the world (short of invading the country) to make life so unpleasant for Iraqi citizens that they would somehow choose to overthrow Saddam Hussein in protest - and they didn’t - so their lives got worse so the USA invaded - and now it’s even worse. Freedom? The average Iraqi is held hostage by forces way, way beyond their control and their lives are filled with killings, and explosions, and crime, and violence. Freedom?
And worse yet, your comment earlier about the USA getting involved in Vietnam to ward off Communist aggression - far out man. Far out. What parallel universe is this?
I ask this simple question… what percentage of American adults actually believe such rubbish to be true? That America simply decided one day in 1964 to go send a shitload of troops to the jungles of South East Asia?
Is no-one being taught the truth anymore? Does no-one know about all the CIA meddling in the mid 1950’s? About all the supplying by the CIA of plastic explosives and munitions during that time to fight the Independance movements of Ho Chi Minh? About how the French conveniently hand-balled the problem into the USA’s laps - knowing full well that it was a Colony which had become “former” in every sense of the word?
Communist aggression my arse. It was cultural imperialism and nothing else - mixed with epic random button pushing and trial and error by the CIA.
Just so. Which brings up a really awkward stance, politically. Recently, the Bushiviks look a lot like they’re beginning to panic. The concept of a “federal” Iraq, that is, an Iraq as a unified country is crucial. But I fear that the only way this can be realized is by sheer force…the same way that Saddam held it together.
A “Balkanized” Iraq is a recipe for disaster. I don’t see any way to keep the Kurds and the Turks from leaping at each others throats at the earlist opportunity.
So the “federal” Iraq is the only rational alternative. And it seems to be the solution the Bushiviks are stumbling towards. They will reconstitute the Iraq army, there isn’t any alternative. That Iraq army will be led by Iraqi officers, again, no alternative. And those Iraqi officers are of precisely the same ethnic and religious derivation that has formed the Iraqi “elite” for loathe, these many years. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Saddam himself will be gone. But that’s about it.
By a lucky coincidence, their political enemies are, to a large degree, ours. So we can safely sic 'em on our enemies, and “security” will result. But if they move to entrench thier position by killing thier political enemies, we will have no way of knowing. We’ll have to take thier word for it.
So we will hand over sovereignty to whatever rag-tag bunch we can scrape together, and we can pretend that we have established “democracy”. But the real power will reside in the Army. History has shown that unarmed men are very prone to accept the wisdom and opinions of armed men.
We can expect, for at least a short “honeymoon” period that Iraqi foreign policy will reflect the wisdom of thier benefactors. The Bushiviks will, naturally, point to this as proof that thier program was successful: behold, a democratic Iraq (though, perhaps, the nascent Republic of Iraq may need the guidance of its military elite for the time being…)
And the worst of it is…there is every likelihood that this is the most optimistic scenario with any plausibility. May God have mercy on the Iraqi people, and forgive us.
. . . or give up the oil and give Iraq to the UN.
The offer’s still there, folks. Many tens of thousands of peacekeepers and nation-builders just waiting for the word.
I fear that the Bushiviks regard turning everything over to the UN as an admission of defeat. They would rather nail thier collective pecker to a tree than admit that. If they could dream up a spin that makes whimpering to the UN look like a bold and forceful initiative, they would be on it like a starving coyote on a chicken.
Karl Rove dreams of France’s Chirac patting GeeDubya on the head in an avuncular fashion and saying “Thats all right, dumbfuck, we’ll clean this up for you, why don’t you just go play with your trucks for a while…”
And wakes up screaming…
Well, their collective pecker will be worse than nailed to a tree; they’ll lose the re-election, which is more akin to being a eunuch on Viagra in a harem and being forced to wach the other guy . . .
Cheney has some heavy choices to have Bush make.
They will not lose the re-election. They will sell thier mothers into porno-slaves. They will sprinkle heroin on their kids oatmeal. They will burn incense at the tomb of Anton Szandor LeVey and profess eternal fealty to the Church of Satan.
But they will not lose the election!
You are a sad excuse for a human being.
If they won’t split up Iraq… can they “write up” a nice constitution with a reasonable amount of autonomy for the south and the north areas ? Or would that simply push them into declaring some sort of independence ?
As for the Americans... as soon as the arabs perceive them as beaten and due to leave Iraq... then the nasty jockeying for power will get nasty. Civil War quite possible.Aw, gee whiz. You don’t love me? Another night of crying myself to sleep. Pobrecito mio!
esquimalt
[Moderator Hat ON]
esquimalt, do not personally insult fellow posters in this forum. elucidator, can you stick to debating the topic, please?
[Moderator Hat OFF]
This unworthy one begs to differ. In my opinion, the central axis upon which the entire mess revolves is the craven grasp for power by the Party of the Undead. They can hear the calender ticking like a time bomb, much like another misguided Texan, lo, those many years ago. IMHO, I am entirely on topic.
I fear The Man of Nipples has been Kippled!
Isn’t that some kind of flat, stinky fish you guys eat for breakfast?
From elucidator
So you see parallels between Johnson and Bush?? I mean, besides the obvious one that they are both Texans of course (though Bush is rather a transplanted Texan IMO). Is that what you are trying to say? If so, could you show how they connect in your mind? I’m not seeing ANY parallels between them.
From From elucidator
And you see this as a parallel to Vietnam how exactly? Or was this just…gods, I don’t even know WHAT this was supposed to be. But I’m failing to see much parallels between Vietnam and Iraq on this page of the thread. Maybe its just too deep for me…could you give subtitles?
BTW, off topic but I gots to know: You don’t REALLY think Bush is gona win, do you?? Please say it aint so. Thats the one thing I would have thought we were in agreement on…that Bush must go, and that the odds of him staying are fairly long and getting longer.
From From elucidator
This was a great speech, but…well, where are the parallels to Vietnam again? I don’t recall any of this. Would you be so good, once again, to provide subtitles so those of us lesser minds can follow how this fits with the OP of this thread? Unless, as it appears, this thread has mearly degenerated into a free for all Bush bash session that doesnt even bother to try and stay close to the topic…which was, Iraq COMPARISONS to Vietnam. 
-XT
Most important question first: do I really think Bush could win? Yes, I do. He has a stupendous financial advantage and a very solid, very loyal base of support. But he must at least appear to have the Iraq issue under control. Hence, the scenario I’ve outlined above becomes more plausible the more the Admin feels the pressure.
We knew when we negotiated the peace agreement over Viet Nam that it would all fall apart the minute our military force was gone. We proceeded anyway, while publicly asserting that “peace with honor” had been obtained.
The fastest way out for the US, perhaps the only way out, is to reconstitute the Iraqi military toot sweet. Only a centralized military force can hold Iraq together as a national entity. And that force will be the ruling authority in Iraq regardless of all fanciful displays of “democracy”. Another version of “peace with honor”. Would the Bushiviks be willing to pretend that a military dominated Iraq with a compliant foreign policy is the same as “liberation”? Of course they are. Especially if all the soldiers are home for the October Victory Parade and Support Our President and Re-Elect Our Troops.
The worst of it is, this may actually be the most optimistic scenario. It may be entirely reasonable for the Iraqi people to accept an authoritarian regime much less obviously oppressive than the previous, as sort of Saddam Lite. Much like the average Vietnamese might have most fervently wished for both of the antagonists to go fuck themselves and leave him in peace.