# Iraq Awareness Rant: A sad day it seems to me. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398 "2004-03-03T22:34:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/21 "2004-03-04T01:04:17Z")
Maybe it’s just “horribleness overload?” I was appalled when I heard about this last night on the news. But every day I pick up the paper and see bombings in Iraq; bombings in Israel; US troops killed in Iraq; whole villages in Africa dying of AIDS; riots in Haiti; bombings in Russia; and right here in New York, some guy who _ripped his girlfriend’s heart out_ because she wouidn’t marry him. I’m exhausted. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/22 "2004-03-04T01:04:42Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > Jojo, > > I read/hear/watch the BBC. I don’t talk here about the BBC or even about other Western media. > > The difference between us is that you don’t read and hear and watch and have contact with the whole region. > I happen to live there and I happen to stay in contact with my home day and night when I am not in my own country. > I think that alone suffices to give us both a rather different perspective and a rather different acces to sources of information. > > Nobody has an idea who did this and throwing around “names” and “suspicions” and “links to AQ/other foreigners” is in fashion these days, as everyone with a bit of brain should know without further explanation. > It is as much in fashion as throwing around “They have WMD” etc… some time ago. We have seen where those “WMD” are. They are as much in my basements and hidden caves as they are in Iraq. > > Salaam. A Where are you from? ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/23 "2004-03-04T01:05:43Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > and right here in New York, some guy who _ripped his girlfriend’s heart out_ because she wouidn’t marry him. > > I’m exhausted. Do… Do you have a link for that? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/24 "2004-03-04T01:08:03Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > If US’ers get killed there, they get killed because they are occupying that nation. I see. If members of the armed forces or individuals working to rebuild Iraqi infrastructure or services are killed, they are “occupiers” and are asking for it. The clarification helps. > [@](#): > > Learn Arabic if you want to know “what is written”. In the common press reports, that is. I doubt you can watch/listen to Arabic media, or have Arabic speaking friends seeking to contact you verbally, but you can always try to make some. Speaking of laziness, how about getting off your duff and providing cites for your statements, rather than hiding behind anonymous Arabic sources that you claim to “get on my desk”\*. Rather than your being entirely lazy, it is likely that you believe some or all of the claptrap that you cite as being common among Arabs, but lack the courage to voice it yourself. Example: do _you_ believe that Israel and the American government are working in concert to create continued bloodshed and havoc in Iraq, so that our forces must be permanently mired there as part of a grand scheme of occupation and conquest? Have the courage to air your own views, demented as they may be. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/25 "2004-03-04T01:10:21Z")
> [@Ilsa\_Lund](#): > > Where are you from? I’m from the land where I was born 🙂 I’m in fact also from the land where my late mother was born. That makes me a weird mix of rather conflicting races and cultures. My relatives claim that this is the reason why I am a born lunatic. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/26 "2004-03-04T01:14:16Z")
> [@Ilsa\_Lund](#): > > Do… Do you have a link for that? :eek: (1010 WINS) (NEW YORK) A 20-year-old Bronx woman who turned down her boyfriend’s marriage proposal on Valentine’s Day was found brutally killed, her heart cut out of her body, according to her family and the police. The body of Betzaida Eva Madera, her throat slashed and a gaping hole in her chest, was found Tuesday in the dining area of the Valentine Avenue apartment she shared with her parents and sister. Wilfredo Lopez, 25, was arrested Tuesday after his aunt called 911 to say he had left a suicide note and had a gun. Police found him in Crotona Park around 1 p.m. They reportedly went to the Valentine Avenue address, where they discovered the macabre scene, after Lopez told police he had hurt Madera. Authorities said two blood-covered kitchen knives were found in the bathroom. According to Madera’s cousin, who identified herself only as Nancy, Lopez proposed to Madera on Valentine’s Day but she turned him down. On Saturday, he asked Nancy to help them get back together, she said. But Nancy said she told Lopez to give Madera some space. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/27 "2004-03-04T01:21:54Z")
Eve, That is just incredible… I suppose that man was on drugs or something? He must have been. And yes, I can understand that people are tired of all that bad news and all that bloodshed daily on their TV and in the news everywhere. What I talk about here is the members of this website who attack everyone who brings them a bit of reality about Iraq. They post the most ridiculous and dishonest replies (I don’t speak even from the language used by some of them) while claiming that they themselves are so preoccupied with the “freedom” and “well being” of the Iraqi citizens. I’m sure you have read such posts. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/28 "2004-03-04T01:26:59Z")
Well I must say **Eve** … (and thanks for the fair point regarding the Ugandan girl the other night) but wow. May I nominate your last post as our first SDMB nominee for “HIJACK OF THE YEAR” 😃 No disrespect intended there, but holy shit, that’s an incredible story which would have hijacked any thread it showed up in. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/29 "2004-03-04T01:35:38Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > (1010 WINS) (NEW YORK) A 20-year-old Bronx woman who turned down her boyfriend’s marriage proposal on Valentine’s Day was found brutally killed, her heart cut out of her body, according to her family and the police. The body of Betzaida Eva Madera, her throat slashed and a gaping hole in her chest, was found Tuesday in the dining area of the Valentine Avenue apartment she shared with her parents and sister. Wilfredo Lopez, 25, was arrested Tuesday after his aunt called 911 to say he had left a suicide note and had a gun. Police found him in Crotona Park around 1 p.m. They reportedly went to the Valentine Avenue address, where they discovered the macabre scene, after Lopez told police he had hurt Madera. Authorities said two blood-covered kitchen knives were found in the bathroom. According to Madera’s cousin, who identified herself only as Nancy, Lopez proposed to Madera on Valentine’s Day but she turned him down. On Saturday, he asked Nancy to help them get back together, she said. But Nancy said she told Lopez to give Madera some space. Well, he may have chopper her up, but he did _not_ physically remove her heart. That’s damn near impossible. **Aldebaran** , since I left the Motherfucker off my repost, will you kindly address it? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/30 "2004-03-04T01:36:41Z")
Jackm… I have no suggestions to make on this because it is impossible to come to any sensible conclusion. Just like it is impossible for me to do that about other ongoing events. Simply because they are ongoing events, which implicates that when gathering information there is no possibility to even have something remotely veryfied on its contenance and reliability. If you want to content yourself with speculations, going forth on what you hear or see in your media, you are free to do so. You are not an exception since millions and millions of people on this globe do nothing else. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/31 "2004-03-04T01:47:47Z")
The responsibility for the situation rests squarely on the USA. The US government said it was going to impose order and make things better in Iraq and now. . . > [@](#): > > [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle\_east/3530663.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3530663.stm) > US points finger over Iraq massacre > The US says it has evidence linking a Jordanian-born al-Qaeda suspect to Tuesday’s devastating attacks in Iraq which killed up to 271 people. The US government blames its enemies for not cooperating. This is just pathetic. This is like a soccer player saying he is the best and the only reason he doesn’t score is that the goalies keep stopping his shots. Well, duh! Calling enemies “terrorists” and other names is just a lame excuse for the fact that the US is incapable of keeping order in Iraq as it is responsible for. The USA should have never invaded the country. The US government created the present situation of chaos and anarchy and is responsible for its consequences. Directly and indirectly the invasion and occupation is responsible for the deaths of many thousands of innocent Iraqis and the Iraqis have every right to blame the USA. **Ilsa\_Lund** , no question that not every American individually is responsible for the actions of the government but if in the coming elections the American people re-elect the person who caused them such death and destruction then I think I can understand if many Iraqis feel they are at war not just with the American government but with the American people just like they feel the American government is at war with the Iraqi people when it has caused so much death and destruction of innocents. I am afraid I can understand that Iraqis and other muslims would become more radical in their support of anti-western terrorism. The victims are all the dead, whether American or Iraqi but if the American people support this policy in the coming elections many Muslims will see that as a justification to take the war to the American people: what the US government calls terrorism when it is directed against American citizens but what Iraqis have been suffering since the USA occupied their country. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/32 "2004-03-04T01:54:10Z")
Meanwhile, there’s Tokyo Governor Ishihara rubbing his hands in anticipation of the deaths of Japanese soldiers. [http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=9&id=290453](http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=9&id=290453) ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/33 "2004-03-04T01:56:18Z")
Eve said: > [@](#): > > I’m exhausted. Cheer up. Worse things happen at sea. Aldebaran said: > [@](#): > > The difference between us is that you don’t read and hear and watch and have contact with the whole region. > I happen to live there and I happen to stay in contact with my home day and night when I am not in my own country. > I think that alone suffices to give us both a rather different perspective and a rather different acces to sources of information. From my understanding though, arab media is somewhat unreliable. For one thing it’s often state owned and therefore not independent and may have an agenda to push. Give me the BBC over any arab state-controlled news outlet any day. I’m assuming your home country is not Iraq. Therefore it doesn’t really matter what the word on the street is in Egypt or in some other arab country. All that matters is what the Iraqis think - it’s their country. And as I said before, if there were widespread opposition to the occupation then I think we would see more evidence of it from the Iraqis themselves. As regards our different perspectives, here in London we have communities from all over the arab world. Local TV and radio ALWAYS gives the arab perspective on news events, often going down to the arab part of London and asking people what they think. Also I personally am a news junkie and read all the news outlets I can find, including arab ones. And I know lots of muslims and we talk about this stuff all the time. So I’m not sure that your perspective is any more correct than mine really. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/34 "2004-03-04T02:02:08Z")
> [@IlsaLund](#): > > In your importunate and infantile assertions that all Americans are 100% evil, greedy capitalistic imperialists, you have blinded yourself to the fact that “US’ers” are people and have feelings just like yourself. Wrong. I never said what you claim here. > [@](#): > > Your complete inability to separate the politics of a country from it’s populace is most irksome. Wrong again. It is clear enough that my critics are for the present US president and governments and the US politics. And if I recall well, I made even posts to make it clear to people (like you) who don’t seem to understand it. > [@](#): > > On a board that is predominately American, your persistent, fatuous and stentorian shrieks about the inhumanity of Americans and their activities in the Middle East are disrespectful, impertinent, impolite, uncivil and ungracious. No it is nothing of what you claim. It is how it is perceived by many people outside the USA. Be aware of it that on many occasions I give that view, not mine, and on many of those occasions I don’t even give the ME view, but the EU view. > [@](#): > > Your falsely stoic anti-nationalism is tiresome. Sorry, can’t place this. > [@](#): > > You are the proverbial bull in a China shop. Maybe the China in that shop needs to be shaken a bit…. We shall see after the next elections, no? > [@](#): > > Your closeminded and hateful worldview There is nothing wrong with my worldview and my mind is rather widely open. I wouldn’t be able to stay out of the madhouse while feeling since day 1 of my life the impact of two such extremely different worlds, if I didn’t receive an upbringing and education that made my sanity able to cope with this. > [@](#): > > is just as destructive as those behind the occupation and the terrorist attacks. You cross **every** line of decency here. I shall give no other comment then that you actually write here that I am of the same kind as those who killed one of my best friends. Thank you very much, but I think you need a cold shower. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/35 "2004-03-04T02:23:34Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > Wrong. I never said what you claim here. > > **Then why the insistence on generalizations about US’ers?** > > Wrong again. It is clear enough that my critics are for the present US president and governments and the US politics. And if I recall well, I made even posts to make it clear to people (like you) who don’t seem to understand it. > > No it is nothing of what you claim. It is how it is perceived by many people outside the USA. Be aware of it that on many occasions I give that view, not mine, and on many of those occasions I don’t even give the ME view, but the EU view. > **Cite?** > Sorry, can’t place this. > > Maybe the China in that shop needs to be shaken a bit…. We shall see after the next elections, no? > > There is nothing wrong with my worldview and my mind is rather widely open. I wouldn’t be able to stay out of the madhouse while feeling since day 1 of my life the impact of two such extremely different worlds, if I didn’t receive an upbringing and education that made my sanity able to cope with this. > > You cross **every** line of decency here. I shall give no other comment then that you actually write here that I am of the same kind as those who killed one of my best friends. Thank you very much, but I think you need a cold shower. > > **Your infantile refusal to listen to reason and you insistence on the characterization of the Coalition forces as barbaric murderers ipso facto is very reminiscent of extremists, of any faction.** > > Salaam. A [sub]M-O-T-H-E-R-F-U-C-K-E-R[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/36 "2004-03-04T02:25:02Z")
I am done with this thread. For the record, I agree with **Boo Boo Foo**. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/37 "2004-03-04T02:26:38Z")
American government and its citizens will be making a serious mistake if all they can do is finger-point and say “Al-Qaeda or Ba’athists did it… how terrible! Muslims killing each other”. Al-Qaeda (or whoever is doing this) has a goal. A clear goal to destabilize the region. It is practically useless to play the blame game. It is the _responsibility_ of the US govt. to thwart their goal and achieve stability. If they cannot do this, this mission will be a failure (setting a bad precedent) and not a single Iraqi will be on our side. This may sound pretty simple (and it is) but some of us do not realize this. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/38 "2004-03-04T02:31:14Z")
**BBF,** I was one of the bigger opponents of the Iraqi invasion here on the boards, and even more so in real life. At one point, I was attending some demonstration or another nearly every day. Yes, in an ideal universe I could afford to be a full-time political activist, and as it is I need to spend far more time at my job to accomplish the same amount of work precisely because of the innumerable stupid and pointless so-called “security” measures the current administration has instituted within the Agency Formerly Known as INS over the past couple of years as part of the “War on Terror” (God how I hate that term). The political has become very much personal in that sense. It’s been a challenge. And yes, there’s probably some compassion fatigue going on with some of us (and definitely with me). It comes with the actual physical and mental fatigue. Bali got an outpouring support because to most of us, it pretty much came out of nowhere (as did 9/11). But if there are at least a few people being blown to smithereens on any given day in Iraq, after a while it’s difficult for me to make a case that the 186 who died in a particular series of incidents are somehow more special or different than the previous 186 who happened to die on different days, or in smaller groups. And short of going there, which probably wouldn’t do anyone any good, I have no special perspectives to offer at the moment, even to the point of being able to formulate a coherent OP. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/39 "2004-03-04T07:28:40Z")
> [@Boo Boo Foo](#): > > OK, yes, **Blowereo** I just finished reading the other thread you linked me to which was written by **Goheels**. > > Indeed, with hindsight, I can see now that my OP in this thread was also ill-conceived - insofar as I didn’t achieve my goal and instead, implied a board-wide insult to my fellow Dopers. And that was uncool. So sorry about that. I’m off to GD now to start the thread I should have started. > > Thanks for the heads up **Blowero** - much appreciated. Gee - that was a much nicer response than I expected. And actually, you didn’t get as much flak from other dopers as I expected. Guess _I’m_ the jerk now. Sorry about that. :o ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398/40 "2004-03-04T12:35:04Z")
FWIW, I thought you did well **blowero**. I had missed **GoHeels** ’ post in that other thread, so it was good to catch that too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-awareness-rant-a-sad-day-it-seems-to-me/232398.md?page=3)