# Iraq before and after US intervention **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720 "2017-11-04T22:20:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/21 "2017-11-13T13:57:37Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > No, those figures were intended to show the general rise of the economy since the chaos of the war. Actually under Saddam unemployment was generally low as dictators always find uses for idle hands, just as the Nazis put Germany to work again. The thing is that your title says “Iraq before and after the invasion” when you meant “Iraq now and right after the invasion” It might be decades before we see the positive effects of democracy in Iraq, if ever. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/22 "2017-11-13T13:57:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The US didn’t attempt to commandeer any of Iraq’s resources. Hardly in a position to, was it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/23 "2017-11-13T14:05:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The US didn’t attempt to commandeer any of Iraq’s resources. Despite the rhetoric that that was what was going to pay for the war. The US didn’t even attempt to capture the alleged WMD sites that were the primary pretext for the whole thing, but went right for the Oil Ministry. You 'member that, right? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/24 "2017-11-13T14:48:29Z")
So if the US were intent on seizing Iraq’s oil, why didn’t it happen? One of the reasons why the Kurdish referendum is such a serious matter is that oil from the North are a major part of the Iraqi government’s revenues. One would suspect that if the US wanted Iraq’s oil, the Iraqi government would not be funded by oil sales. Because the US government would be drinking Iraq’s milkshake. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/25 "2017-11-13T15:01:33Z")
Their milkshake brings Exxon to the yard… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/26 "2017-11-13T15:24:22Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Hardly in a position to, was it. Um…huh? We were totally in a position too. We could have easily looted the entire country, especially the oil, had that been the goal. Why do you think we weren’t in the position to do so, and what position do you suppose a conquering nation would need to be in to do so? As to the OP: > [@](#): > > In short Iraq is no longer ruled by a dictator and the majority of its people now have a government which represents them. Tell me, and it’s an honest question, why is US intervention in Iraq considered such a failure? It’s seen as a failure because it’s seen as unnecessary. Most think (rightfully) that Saddam was contained, that there were no WMD and due to the sanctions no real way for Saddam et al the ramp that backs up to make new ones. My own guess is that when Arab Spring kicked off that would have been the end for Saddam and his merry men. Basically, Iraq would be Syria and Syria would probably be more stable today as it was the invasion that partially destabilized Syria and weakened it to the point where rebellion happened. Mostly it’s seen as a failure because despite the military success it was very much a political failure of epic proportions. Today, Iraq is increasingly moving into Iran’s sphere of influence, despite massive spending on the US’s part to try and stabilize the country after we tore it apart. To summarize, the US really didn’t have a plan for what to do after Saddam was deposed, didn’t use enough forces to both do the job of defeating the Iraqi military AND holding the country long enough for stability to be asserted and then compounded the problems by not having enough experts on Iraq to even wing it effectively. The focus was on the military and almost nothing on the political, but the actual military aspects of the campaign were only a few weeks, which ignored the years of bloodshed to come. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/27 "2017-11-13T15:50:52Z")
All that oil was \*already \*under contract to, “owned” by, Big Western Petro. Major campaign contributors. Not really good business to seize it, yanno. There was a historically incredible amount of self-delusion required to rationalize this debacle, especially to be confident that all that was needed for Libertarianopia to flower and triumph, was the removal of the one stabilizing force the country had, dreadful though it was. The US had traditionally worked with, and even propped up, those guys, at least when they could say “I’m a bastion against Communism, now give me money and weapons.” But the end of the Cold War left its warriors unable to adjust to any other mode of thinking except to go to the opposite extreme. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/28 "2017-11-13T16:04:46Z")
Plus any revenues, inc taxation, could be generated went to trying to keep the state functioning, teachers, bureaucrats, hospitals, etc. Plus there was the small issue of a destroyed infrastructure. Fwiw, I believe it was closer to £2 trillion rather than the $1 trillion as stated above. And half a million shredded civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/29 "2017-11-13T16:05:21Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > In short Iraq is no longer ruled by a dictator and the majority of its people now have a government which represents them. Tell me, and it’s an honest question, why is US intervention in Iraq considered such a failure? Who said it was a failure? We went in to find and destroy Saddam’s WMDs, and now there are no WMDs in Iraq. A complete success! Also, nobody in Iraq has been eaten by a tiger this year so we were also successful in preventing tiger-related deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/30 "2017-11-13T17:27:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The US invasion of Iraq was like curing a cancer through massive doses of chemotherapy. Sure, it killed the cancer - and 14 years later, the patient is now in better condition than before - but the intermediate cost was horrific, with the chemotherapy destroying all kinds of good cells and hair and whatnot. > > The cancer could have been cured through other, easier and perhaps much less damaging ways. What a stupid, arrogant thing to say. Your prognosis is like telling a person whose cancer has recurred they’re healed. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/31 "2017-11-13T17:33:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Despite the rhetoric that that was what was going to pay for the war. > > The US didn’t even attempt to capture the alleged WMD sites that were the primary pretext for the whole thing, but went right for the Oil Ministry. You 'member that, right? I do. Read it in the L.A. Times. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/32 "2017-11-13T17:36:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So if the US were intent on seizing Iraq’s oil, why didn’t it happen? One of the reasons why the Kurdish referendum is such a serious matter is that oil from the North are a major part of the Iraqi government’s revenues. One would suspect that if the US wanted Iraq’s oil, the Iraqi government would not be funded by oil sales. Because the US government would be drinking Iraq’s milkshake. You don’t think the US wanted to set up a government that would do its bidding? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/33 "2017-11-13T17:40:31Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Oh? Which lie do you believe? The one about the weapons, the one about freeing the Iraqi people, or the one about fighting them over there so you didn’t have to do so over here, a.k.a. “Operation Human Shield”? The one I didn’t believe is the one where the US commandeered their resources. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/34 "2017-11-13T17:42:12Z")
When citing casualties it might be important to consider how many people would have died under Saddam’s regime under sanctions or during the civil war that may have take place had he continued to remain in power. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/35 "2017-11-13T17:45:43Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Um…huh? We were totally in a position too. We could have easily looted the entire country, especially the oil, had that been the goal. Why do you think we weren’t in the position to do so, and what position do you suppose a conquering nation would need to be in to do so? You might recall that the expectation was that the Iraqis, overjoyed at Saddam being deposed would flow flowers at the troops. Instead they threw IEDs. A massive insurgency was not all that conducive to taking the oil. By the time things settled down, it was too late. Plus, IIRC, it took a while for oil production to come back on line. That the Cheney administration was too incompetent to steal the oil doesn’t mean they didn’t intend to. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/36 "2017-11-13T17:47:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The one I didn’t believe is the one where the US commandeered their resources. > > Regards, > Shodan No one said they did, just that this was the plan. They commandeered ours. Remember those missing truckloads of money? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/37 "2017-11-13T17:47:27Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > You don’t think the US wanted to set up a government that would do its bidding? There were certainly some American policymakers who were convinced that Iraq would be bestowed with an enlightened self interest to do everything that the US wanted them to do after Saddam was deposed; but in the main, I’d have to say that the Bush Administration’s Iraq policy was aimed primarily at making Iraq somewhat more friendly to the US. The way you phrase it, as thought Iraq would become in effect a colony of the US, I believe is inaccurate. And I’m saying this as someone who has always opposed the invasion, and not in a Donald Trump “I was for it before I was always against it” sort of way. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/38 "2017-11-13T17:48:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > No one said they did, just that this was the plan. They commandeered ours. So why didn’t this sinister plan work? Doesn’t even seem like anyone actually attempted any drinking of Iraq’s milkshake, as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/39 "2017-11-13T17:51:35Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You might recall that the expectation was that the Iraqis, overjoyed at Saddam being deposed would flow flowers at the troops. Instead they threw IEDs. A massive insurgency was not all that conducive to taking the oil. By the time things settled down, it was too late. Plus, IIRC, it took a while for oil production to come back on line. I assume you have a cite where Cheney says “we are going to steal their oil” (or whatever). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720/40 "2017-11-13T17:52:25Z")
I believe it is accurate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-before-and-after-us-intervention/800720.md?page=3)