# Iraq Body Count report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 5, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758 "2005-08-05T18:57:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/21 "2005-08-07T07:28:59Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I don’t think anyone could plausibly argue that the current level of criminality in Iraq is entirely unrelated to the effects of the US invasion, particularly the dismantling of what passed for a police force and justice system under the former regime. All the talk how Saddam was keeping criminals in check by any brutal means necessary is just another example of disconnect, especially on the part of modern liberals. Any modern liberal firmly believes, quite correctly, that brutal punishment, particularly death penalty, don’t solve crime problems but only make them worse. But somehow this believe doesn’t extend beyond the borders of democratic countries. Somehow same people who would nobly protest ‘justice without mercy’ in their own world, suddenly accept that brutal and arbitrary justice might solve criminal problems in far away countries ruled by fascistic regimes. Which, of course, it doesn’t, because it can’t. Just as modern liberals say, the more brutal and lethal law enforcement is, the more serious the criminal problem grows. Fascistic regimes are incubators of hardened criminals. Just look at explosion of criminality after USSR collapsed. As far as criminal problem in Iraq, US is reaping what Saddam sowed. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/22 "2005-08-07T14:18:54Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > [Iraq style criminal violence on US border.](http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44694) > > Those criminals in Mexico-US border states kill policemen of all ranks and terrorize whole towns, yet nobody calls them insurgents. Maybe the context is a different one that doesn’t justify the use of the word. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/23 "2005-08-07T14:26:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Somehow same people who would nobly protest ‘justice without mercy’ in their own world, suddenly accept that brutal and arbitrary justice might solve criminal problems in far away countries ruled by fascistic regimes. I think you are reading an interpretation into my remarks that is simply not there. I by no means ‘accept that brutal and arbitrary justice might solve criminal problems’ Iraq, or anywhere else; I merely suggest that the absense of a law enforcement structure in the wake of the invasion may have contributed to an increase in criminality. Hey, I’ll give you this one for free: maybe criminality was equal, or even higher, under Saddam’s regime. Do you, or anyone else, know for sure? > [@](#): > > Also, I do not suggest any media motives, but only wonder what they might be. Well, if that is indeed what you want to discuss, please suggest a few and we’ll see how they stand up to reason. Oh, and thanks for calling me a modern liberal; I’d hate to think I was one of those older, obsolete models. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/24 "2005-08-07T15:15:26Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Any modern liberal firmly believes, quite correctly, that brutal punishment, particularly death penalty, don’t solve crime problems but only make them worse. But somehow this believe doesn’t extend beyond the borders of democratic countries. Somehow same people who would nobly protest ‘justice without mercy’ in their own world, suddenly accept that brutal and arbitrary justice might solve criminal problems in far away countries ruled by fascistic regimes. Which, of course, it doesn’t, because it can’t. Just as modern liberals say, the more brutal and lethal law enforcement is, the more serious the criminal problem grows. It comes as a complete surprise to me that “modern liberals” are currently in charge of policy in Iraq: [West turns blind eye as police put Saddam’s torturers back to work](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1683578,00.html) > [@](#): > > IRAQI security forces, set up by American and British troops, torture detainees by pulling out their fingernails, burning them with hot irons or giving them electric shocks, Iraqi officials say. Cases have also been recorded of bound prisoners being beaten to death by police. > > In their haste to put police on the streets to counter the brutal insurgency, Iraqi and US authorities have enlisted men trained under Saddam Hussein’s regime and versed in torture and abuse, the officials told The Times. They said that recruits were also being drawn from the ranks of outlawed Shia militias. > > Counter-insurgencies are rarely clean fights, but Iraq’s dirty war is being waged under the noses of US and British troops whose mission is to end the abuses of the former dictatorship. Instead, they appear to have turned a blind eye to the constant reports of torture from Iraq’s prisons. > > Among the worst offenders cited are the Interior Ministry police commandos, a force made up largely of former army officers and special forces soldiers drawn from the ranks of Saddam’s dissolved army. They are seen as the most effective tool the coalition has in fighting the insurgency. Meet the new boss… ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/25 "2005-08-07T17:37:04Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Maybe the context is a different one that doesn’t justify the use of the word. There appears to be a lot of diverse context in Iraq killings, once IBC sorted them out (however imperfectly) ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/26 "2005-08-07T17:41:50Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Oh, and thanks for calling me a modern liberal; I’d hate to think I was one of those older, obsolete models. By ‘modern liberal’ I mean second half of XX century, as opposed to ‘classical liberal’ of XIX century. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/27 "2005-08-07T17:50:48Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > …if that is indeed what you want to discuss, please suggest a few (media motives) and we’ll see how they stand up to reason. I dunno. Quite a few conflicting possibilities come to mind. They might be all working for Osama and try to destroy America; they might be all working for CIA and try to keep US public duped forever; my favorite is they all are lazy bastards. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/28 "2005-08-07T18:11:03Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > According to IBC report, “_a murder here, a murder there by criminals_” in Iraq amount to FOUR times the number of civilians killed by insurgents. Strawman this. What about it? DC sees about 250 murders every year with almost none of them making the evening news. Think ten car bombs that killed 5 people each time would make national news? Of course it would. A murder here, a murder there doesn’t make national news. Never has, never will. > [@](#): > > Btw, murder rate by “criminals” in Iraq is around 17 per 100,000. Louisiana, the worst in US, had 13 murders per 100,000 in 2003. And how many Louisiana make the national news? > [@](#): > > If such headlines as for example “Criminal violence in Iraq kill more people today” would be a regular feature in the news, then I would never see a contradiction between media and IBC data. That’s not headline grabbing. Carbombings that take out large groups of civilians and American troops are headline grabbing. Newspapers will flock to headline grabbing. Your desperate attempt to try and assign some sort of ulterior motives on the part of the media is just looking sad. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/29 "2005-08-07T18:23:55Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > By ‘modern liberal’ I mean second half of XX century, as opposed to ‘classical liberal’ of XIX century. _I am the very model of the modern major liberal…_ Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/30 "2005-08-07T20:52:51Z")
Or, if I might expand (I promise I’ll hush after this, but I’ve been humming this to myself in the car as I ran errands): _I am the very model of the modern Nader liberal My fling with Greens in ninety-six was fiery but ephemeral I’m to the left of Democrats on issues, but in general Their candidate has my vote, even if they run a dinner roll._ Daniel ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/31 "2005-08-07T21:11:53Z")
I’m not sure I quite grasp the point that is being made. Should we not be concerned about the killings by insugents which are related to our being there just because other killing occurs that is only tangentially related, if at all, to our presence? And, of course, a high non-insurgent crime rate doesn’t make us look very good since we are responsible for maintaining civil order, having kicked out the only government that Iraq had. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/32 "2005-08-07T21:27:01Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > And, of course, a high non-insurgent crime rate doesn’t make us look very good since we are responsible for maintaining civil order, having kicked out the only government that Iraq had. Great point. Maybe now that its been mentioned [twice](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6445082&postcount=12) , **Isk** will deign respond to it. As for the “point being made” in the OP, you actually grasp it perfectly if unawarely. To deflect attention from the bumbling occupation and blame the liberal media/everyone else for the current clusterfuck. Novel approach as I’m sure you’d agree. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/33 "2005-08-07T22:15:38Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > And, of course, a high non-insurgent crime rate doesn’t make us look very good since we are responsible for maintaining civil order, having kicked out the only government that Iraq had. Yes, we are responsible, and No, we can’t do it Saddam’s way. So what do we do? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/34 "2005-08-08T01:58:36Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Yes, we are responsible, and No, we can’t do it Saddam’s way. So what do we do? I kind of hope that the bigdomes who decided that we should take out Saddam would have come up with a plan to maintain some kind of civil order to control common crime by this time. I have no solution and even if I did I can’t imagine that GW would implement it. One thing for sure, Iraq badly needs an effective police, justice (courts) and correctional (prison or jail) system. This whole thing is a Class A, G.W. Bush fuckup of the kind he holds a patent on. Unneeded invasion of a country only distantly related to our national security. No followup plans as to what to do after the conventional war ends. Unwillingness to change the mode of operation in the face of an outstanding lack of success. Maybe he’s taking the month off down in Crawford to come up with a plan to correct the situation. Suppose? ---
**Author:** ![Soylent\_Gene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@Soylent\_Gene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soylent_Gene)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/35 "2005-08-08T07:22:10Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > This whole thing is a Class A, G.W. Bush fuckup of the kind he holds a patent on. Unneeded invasion of a country only distantly related to our national security. No followup plans as to what to do after the conventional war ends. Unwillingness to change the mode of operation in the face of an outstanding lack of success. Maybe he’s taking the month off down in Crawford to come up with a plan to correct the situation. Suppose? It’s unbelievable this asshole takes a record long vacation while a war that he started just sputters along, headed nowhere, as American kids are dying for him. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758/36 "2005-08-09T00:20:38Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > This whole thing is a Class A, G.W. Bush fuckup of the kind he holds a patent on. Unneeded invasion of a country only distantly related to our national security. No followup plans as to what to do after the conventional war ends. Unwillingness to change the mode of operation in the face of an outstanding lack of success. Maybe he’s taking the month off down in Crawford to come up with a plan to correct the situation. Suppose? > [@Soylent Gene](#): > > It’s unbelievable this asshole takes a record long vacation while a war that he started just sputters along, headed nowhere, as American kids are dying for him. But… but… they told us a year ago that the whole thing was a “catastrophic success”! [cite](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0830-04.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-body-count-report/315758.md?page=1)