# Iraq Independence in June 2004 - mark your calendars! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2003, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391 "2003-11-15T05:45:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2003, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/41 "2003-11-17T09:14:16Z")
\>\> US agrees to international control of its troops in Iraq We shall have to see what really develops but Bush always comes up a day late and a dollar short and I would be surprised if that changes. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/42 "2003-11-17T22:43:30Z")
I agree with the assesment that in the consideration of democracy vs stability… the US will chose stability in Iraq. A true Iraqi democracy would be against troops remaining… or at least not without very strict limitations on what they can do. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/43 "2003-11-17T23:59:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*\>\> US agrees to international control of its troops in Iraq > > We shall have to see what really develops but Bush always comes up a day late and a dollar short and I would be surprised if that changes. \*\* Yep. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/44 "2003-11-18T03:26:35Z")
The idea that Afghans and Iraqis will love “democracy” if they are just given the least chance is just a sad joke. What you like is not necessarily what everybody likes. Different folks, different strokes and all that. It seems the USA did not learn the lesson in Vietnam. The whole effort is misguided and doomed to failure. The idea that Iraq will become Deutchland on the Tigris if just given the chance is just ludicrous. > [@](#): > > [Italian Member of Coalition in Iraq Quits](http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3400078,00.html) > > resigned, accusing the Bush administration of inefficiency and failing to understand Iraq. > > Marco Calamai, a special counselor of the Coalition Provisional Authority in the southern province of Dhi Qar, criticized L. Paul Bremer’s administration for its handling of Iraq. The charges come as Russia and France objected to the U.S. timetable for handing over power to the Iraqis by July . . . . Calamai said only an interim authority headed by the United Nations could turn things around. > > Calamai told the Italian reporters. . . that the failure of the coalition to understand Iraqi society had created `delusion, social discontent and anger'' among Iraqis and allowed terrorism to `easily take root.’’ > > Calamai said about $400,000 a month was supposed to be made available for projects in Dhi Qar province alone but `because of the muddled organization of (the coalition), only a fraction has been spent.'' `The provisional authority simply doesn’t work,’’ Calamai told the newspapers. He said only a U.N. administration could turn the tide. > > Calamai’s criticism is similar to that leveled by Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. Cordesman, who went to Iraq at the invitation of the U.S. government, said coalition authority staffers believe their headquarters is an overcentralized bureaucracy that is unrealistic about developments in Iraq. He said too many coalition authority workers are talking to Americans rather than working with Iraqis. > > Such criticism raises questions about the coalition’s ability to oversee the transfer of power. Although primary responsibility rests with the Iraqis, several Iraqi politicians have said privately that the effort cannot succeed without strong U.S. direction it is not only Iraq but Afghanistan ain’t doing so well either. > [@](#): > > [UN Suspends Aid Operations in Afghan Region Following Attack on Staff Member](http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=CF20060D-9688-49DC-BBD41A6554C017FE) > > The United Nations refugee agency has suspended operations in the southern half of Afghanistan. The move comes a day after a UNHCR staff member was shot dead. The suspension also affects some offices in neighboring Pakistan. > U.N. spokeswoman Marie Okabe Monday called the situation in southern Afghanistan very serious a day after 29-year-old French national Bettina Goislard was shot dead as she traveled in a marked U.N. vehicle in the city of Ghazni. Spokeswoman Okabe said staff is being withdrawn from the > > The suspension of U.N. activities is seen as a setback for government leaders in Kabul. The government is heavily dependent on international aid workers to extend its influence to outlying regions, many of which are controlled by regional warlords opposed to central rule. ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/45 "2003-11-18T03:49:08Z")
In the past couple of days, the U.S. has turned up the volume on the offensive against Iraq forces. From [Foxnews.com](http://Foxnews.com): **TIKRIT, Iraq — Pressing their search for a former Saddam deputy believed to be orchestrating attacks on Americans, U.S. forces Monday attacked dozens of suspected guerrilla hideouts in Saddam Hussein’s (search) hometown, killing six alleged Saddam loyalists.** I swear, if I wasn’t being advised otherwise by my government, I would think we were at war. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/46 "2003-11-18T04:08:39Z")
It is truly disgusting. The USA is using the same punitive measures against the population as Israel and as the Nazis used. The pretense that the USA is there “to help” is a cruel joke. > [@](#): > > [http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/17/sprj.irq.int.main/](http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/17/sprj.irq.int.main/) > > Strikes in the town of Ad Dwar, north of Tikrit, destroyed several buildings, including houses of individuals believed to be involved in the shooting down of a U.S. helicopter on November 7. Also targeted by U.S artillery was an abandoned summer palace belonging to Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri, an official in the deposed regime who is No. 6 on the list of 55 most wanted Iraqis. > > A military source said the offensive is designed “to let the Iraqis know that the attacks on the coalition will not be tolerated.” What kind of idiots are they to not realize they are making enemies and terrorists? The whole thing is immoral and barbaric. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/47 "2003-11-18T04:26:17Z")
They haven’t been that explicit about it yet. I am appalled by the very idea of “reprisals” against the civilian population. But I am very troubled by the used of the word “including”…which is to say that some of the houses were of individuals _not_ “believed to be involved”. Very troubling indeed. I very much hope to hear this explained in a way that does not lead me to believe such a wretched thing has been done in my name. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/48 "2003-11-18T21:13:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > What kind of idiots are they to not realize they are making enemies and terrorists? Truth be told, I don’t think they care. As long as the oil keeps flowing to the United States (and pumps up the share prices of Haliburton _et al_), “they” will consider it a resounding success. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/49 "2003-11-18T21:29:41Z")
“Never attribute to malice what can just as easily be explained by stupidity” - Lord Acton (paraphrased) ---
**Author:** ![5que](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/3bc359/32.png) [@5que](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5que)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/50 "2003-11-18T22:19:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blonde \* > \*\*And, let’s catch Bin Laden - throw $87 billion towards that end. \*\* Take some odds on Bin Laden being captured or killed plus or minus one week of the Republican National Convention? ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/51 "2003-11-19T02:37:43Z")
Saddam: on or around Labor Day. Bin Laden: sometime in October. I’ll have money on it when the time comes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/52 "2003-11-19T02:44:00Z")
Nah. These guys aren’t that smart, they don’t have that much control, this ain’t a Tom Clancy novel. If they could cash in the Osama chip, they would already have done so. They can hear the calender ticking…November…November… ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/53 "2003-11-19T03:06:53Z")
Remember that Lily Tomlin quote about cynicism you posted? Remember it. ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/54 "2003-11-19T03:07:50Z")
Let’s hope our troops are home in time for the election, eh? I do agree that if we could have found them by now, we would have done so. And, why the hell can’t we find them?? Most powerful nation in the world, my ass. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/55 "2003-11-19T03:28:23Z")
The problem is in our fundamental assumptions on fighting the “War on Terror”. Its in the very title, the desire to reduce the problem down to something that can be dealt with by raw force. When you are a hammer, you see problems as nails. It was a tragic error. To fight shadowy criminals, you must use police methods. Informants, rewards, spies, the entire disgusting _megilla_. But no weapon would be as powerful as cooperation, the willingness of people to _tell you things_. GeeDubya pissed that away. We had the sympathy of the entire world, people who didn’t even _like_ us held candlelight vigils. (Theres a whole web site devoted to such pictures…) Why can’t we find Osama? Because no one wants to be the one who tells us where he is. No one wants to be the “dirty little coward who shot Mr. Howard.” (You think the guy who ratted out Saddam’s sons is happy? I think he’s afraid, and I don’t think its possible to be happy and afraid at the same time. $20 million buys less than you may think…) We are stymied and frustrated because we made a _fundamental_ error: preferring military force to patient, plodding police and intelligence work. So many echoes of the Viet Nam years, add one more: “Pitiful, helpless giant”… Ol’ Hank Kissinger ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/56 "2003-11-19T05:01:31Z")
**elucidator** - you know, I had never considered that (your quote) - “$20 million buys less than you may think.” But, in fact, you have a valid point there. The terrorist factions aren’t really interested in money, are they? It’s all about taking our ass down, strap on that bomb and damn the consequences. Which, again, convinces me that no major power can ever defeat an enemy who is a) not afraid to die in the name of their God; b) hate those nations they deem “immoral.” The saddest fact? The inhabitants of the earth have never been in a state of peace. Ever. If anyone can come up with a logical way to explain that to children, I’d appreciate hearing the reason, because I have two young ones. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/57 "2003-11-19T05:33:43Z")
We get smarter. We get smarter because our children make it necessary. We do it for love. So do they. That’s progress. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/58 "2003-11-19T18:21:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Elucidator wrote: > Why can’t we find Osama? Because no one wants to be the one who tells us where he is. No one wants to be the “dirty little coward who shot Mr. Howard.” (You think the guy who ratted out Saddam’s sons is happy? I think he’s afraid, and I don’t think its possible to be happy and afraid at the same time. $20 million buys less than you may think…) While I generally agree with you on the whole “war on terror” issue (ie, it’s a police/spy problem), I don’t think the above quote stands up to scrutiny. The military action in Afgahnistan was generally agreed by “the international community” as being a justified effort. We had been hunting ObL for many, mnay months before the Iraq invasion became a lightning rod of sorts for anti-American feeling. During those months, no one stepped forward with info on ObL that lead to his capture. And this during a time, as you admit, when there was genuine sympathy for the US even from some traditional foes. Now, if it were true that we had 20 tips a week about ObL and his whereabouts before the Iraq invasion and that dried up to near zero, then your thesis would make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391/59 "2003-11-20T05:48:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*We get smarter. We get smarter because our children make it necessary. We do it for love. So do they. > > That’s progress. \*\* I hope you’re right, with all my heart… However, the cynic in me says that the violence will continue as long as this planet is intact, and love doesn’t enter into the equation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-independence-in-june-2004-mark-your-calendars/213391.md?page=2)