# Iraq insurgents make offer **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2006, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598 "2006-06-29T03:44:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/21 "2006-06-30T00:40:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: A government that can’t govern is no government, **Ryan.** You were flat wrong on this point – repeatedly! – in the thread on the [Khalilzad Cable](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=376303) and you don’t appear to have learned any better yet. It’s internationally recognised, the insurgents are not, henceforth _that Government_ is \*\*the Government \*\* ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/22 "2006-06-30T00:50:55Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > It’s internationally recognised, the insurgents are not, henceforth _that Government_ is \*\*the Government \*\* Did I suggest the insurgents were the government? What they’ve got in Iraq now is what political scientists call a [failed state.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state) Who the nominal or even internationally recognized “government” is makes no practical difference. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/23 "2006-06-30T01:59:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I know it only makes sense to talk to Edgar Bergen, but it doesn’t hurt to talk to Charlie McCarthy also. Oooo, I’m gonna use _that_ one of these days… ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/24 "2006-06-30T02:01:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Did I suggest the insurgents were the government? What they’ve got in Iraq now is what political scientists call a [failed state.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state) Who the nominal or even internationally recognized “government” is makes no practical difference. Did it even have a chance to fail? Premature and stillborn state might be more like it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/25 "2006-06-30T02:06:10Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Did it even have a chance to fail? Premature and stillborn state might be more like it. Not necessarily. Someday the present Iraqi government, or one lineally-institutionally descended from it, may be a truly effective national government. I certainly hope so. But at present, it’s a farce. And no matter how many elections they hold, and no matter how fair and free they are, the government will never have the legitimacy it needs so long it is perceived as a U.S./British puppet. The only way it can prove it’s **not** a puppet is to tell us to fuck off over something important and make it stick. E.g., by repudiating the no-bid reconstruction contracts granted to U.S. and British firms by the Coalition Provisional Authority. I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/26 "2006-06-30T02:27:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Did I suggest the insurgents were the government? What they’ve got in Iraq now is what political scientists call a [failed state.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state) Who the nominal or even internationally recognized “government” is makes no practical difference. Really. Democracy isn’t just a word, its a concept and an idea born from the people who seek it out. When those people risk death for the privilege of voting it is the polar opposite of a failed state. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/27 "2006-06-30T02:32:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Really. Democracy isn’t just a word, its a concept and an idea born from the people who seek it out. When those people risk death for the privilege of voting it is the polar opposite of a failed state. But the idea is worthless if it’s not possible to act it out. When people \*have to risk their lives \* for the privilege of voting, that suggest a failed state to me. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/28 "2006-06-30T02:37:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Really. Democracy isn’t just a word, its a concept and an idea born from the people who seek it out. When those people risk death for the privilege of voting it is the polar opposite of a failed state. No, **Magiver,** in this case it is, quite tragically, an **element** of a failed state. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/29 "2006-06-30T02:41:57Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > When people \*have to risk their lives \* for the privilege of voting, that suggest a failed state to me. Not necessarily. Our own (American) ancestors risked their lives to establish a republic independent of Britain. A lot of the South African people, not too long ago, risked their lives for the privilege of voting, and a viable state resulted. But then, the danger was over **before** elections were held. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/30 "2006-06-30T04:39:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, **Magiver,** in this case it is, quite tragically, an **element** of a failed state. Sad is the nature of man who loses his soul to debate. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/31 "2006-06-30T11:47:48Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > It is the [official Government](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Iraq%2C_2006-2010#Issues_faced_by_the_government) of the Iraqi people. Defence and Interior ministries were filled nearly a month ago, therefore Iraq now has it’s first full **permanent government**. You’re confusing form with function. > [@](#): > > But it _is_ undercutting the Iraqi Government, much like the terms of the Paris Peace Accords undercut the South Vietnamese Government after US Withdrawal. > > [Paris Peace Accords - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Accords) In addition to your reversing the timeline, your link has this: > [@](#): > > The neutrality of this article is disputed. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/32 "2006-06-30T12:01:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Really. Democracy isn’t just a word, its a concept and an idea born from the people who seek it out. When those people risk death for the privilege of voting it is the polar opposite of a failed state. All other things being equal, when people risk violence and death for the privilege of voting, it bodes well for the resulting government, because the people have invested themselves in the outcome. But the willingness of the citizenry to undertake such risk is unfortunately not a sufficient condition to create a viable state. If the fruit of all that risk is a Green Zone government, then that investment has been wasted. What Iraq _really_ needs in order to develop good democratic institutions, should peace eventually arrive, is robust _local_ government. If there’s been any good reporting on how Iraq’s cities and towns have been run during the past few years, I’ve missed it. But at the local level, people can see the officials they elect deal with problems of a very concrete nature, and whose solutions and failures are close at hand and more easily grasped. From there, Iraqis would have the chance to learn which officials might be worthy of trust on a national stage. Right now, they’ve got a government composed of people who may or may not be trustworthy, and how the heck do they know? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/33 "2006-06-30T14:14:18Z")
Let’s get back on track. Eleven Sunni groups have offered to end their attacks on Coalition forces, **if** we agree to withdraw all troops from Iraq within two years. Which we should be planning to do anyway, shouldn’t we? In fact, two years is much too long a time-frame. Is there any reason not to accept this offer and make the promise, even if it will not stop attacks by other insurgent factions? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/34 "2006-06-30T15:45:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Let’s get back on track. Eleven Sunni groups have offered to end their attacks on Coalition forces, **if** we agree to withdraw all troops from Iraq within two years. Which we should be planning to do anyway, shouldn’t we? In fact, two years is much too long a time-frame. Is there any reason not to accept this offer and make the promise, even if it will not stop attacks by other insurgent factions? Can’t think of why not. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/35 "2006-06-30T17:29:37Z")
Nor I. It’s an exit strategy with an actual, tangible goal built in, as opposed to far more vague goals such as “until the Iraqis are truly free”. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/36 "2006-06-30T17:50:24Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Nor I. It’s an exit strategy with an actual, tangible goal built in, as opposed to far more vague goals such as “until the Iraqis are truly free”. I don’t see anyone saying that, I see the US administration and the Iraqi Government wanting MNF forces to remain until the Iraqi Army is upto scratch, as well as the Iraqi police forces. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/37 "2006-06-30T17:57:19Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I don’t see anyone saying that, I see the US administration and the Iraqi Government wanting MNF forces to remain until the Iraqi Army is upto scratch, as well as the Iraqi police forces. What is this “MNF”? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/38 "2006-06-30T18:00:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What is this “MNF”? ‘Multi National Forces’ ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/39 "2006-06-30T18:15:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Let’s get back on track. Eleven Sunni groups have offered to end their attacks on Coalition forces, if we agree to withdraw all troops from Iraq within two years. Which we should be planning to do anyway, shouldn’t we? In fact, two years is much too long a time-frame. Is there any reason not to accept this offer and make the promise, even if it will not stop attacks by other insurgent factions? I can think of a few minor reasons off the top of my head, but overall I can’t see why we don’t at least seriously look into this offer. IF its being made in good faith, and IF this cuts down on a significant percentage of attackes and IF these groups can come up with some way to assure they will honor the cease fire for 2 years…a lot of 'if’s there. However, I don’t see too many draw backs in looking more closely at the proposal. That said, I don’t think there is a snowballs chance in hell that Bush et al WILL look into it. I think they already have dismissed it out of hand. Maybe they have good reasons I’m not aware of…or maybe its the standard, stuborn knee jerk reaction at work here (guess which side I come down on? 😛 ). I don’t know. But I think its really going to have to wait until Bush and his merry men are gone before progress happens. We are going to be stuck in Iraq until then IMHO (I know this isn’t what I thought last year…I’ve had a bit of an epiphany wrt this whole mess lately). ☹ -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598/40 "2006-06-30T18:15:01Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > ‘Multi National Forces’ Ah. Not a phrase the U.S. media use, perhaps in the UK. Well, if that’s what it means you shouldn’t say “MNF forces” – it’s redundant, like “ATM machine.” As for staying around until both the Iraqi Army and police are “up to scratch” – well, they seem no nearer that point now than a year ago. At some point, you’ve got to recognize a point of diminishing returns and cut your losses – even if it means those killed up to now will have “died in vain.” That’s very pernicious thinking, anyway. It’s the attitude that caused WWI to drag on as long as it did. I recall one of the Middle Eastern folk tales of the [Mullah Nasrudin:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasrudin) Walking along a road in India, Nasrudin grew very hungry. He came across a man sitting under a tree selling small, green fruits out of a basket. Nasrudin handed the man a few coins – and the man handed over the whole basket; such fruits being very cheap and usually bought in small amounts. Nasrudin walked along, found a tree to sit under, and began to eat. He soon noticed his throat was burning and his eyes tearing. Another traveler – from Persia, like Nasrudin – rounded the bend and saw what Nasrudin was doing. “Fool!” he cried. “Do you not know the chillies of India?! They are for making curry! You don’t eat them whole! Stop and drink some water or you’ll be dead by sundown!” Nasruding kept on eating the fruits, eyes tearing, and making involuntary moans of pain. The traveler repeated, “Stop, fool! Stop eating the fruit!” “I am not eating the fruit any more!” Nasrudin choked out. “I am eating my money!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-insurgents-make-offer/362598.md?page=3)