# Iraq invasion harming the War on Terror: the smoking gun? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754 "2004-03-27T16:59:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/61 "2004-04-01T21:16:47Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I found it more than a little strange that you quizzed me very deliberately regarding my interpretation of Clarke’s words, yet you didn’t slow down and ask me any clarifying questions before lecturing me with platitudes like these: You forgot the rest of it > [@](#): > > See, here I suspected that you had the type of objections that could be backed up with some cited facts presented to make a case that either we didn’t have “a window of opportunity” or that we still had “a window of opportunity”. > Instead, part of the test you used to see if the qoute posessed the quality of inanity was a temporal one. You’re saying that now, after “they killed the whole bunch of us,” is, in fact, not an appropriate “time to get on their good side.” > But, to be fair, this was a kinda tricky thing for me to try and guess. I mean, the quote uses the phrase “Islamic world,” and you equate “Islamic World” with “al Qaeda (et al)” or “terrorists” or whatever other phrase that could reasonably be referred to by the pronoun “they” in your clause, “they killed the whole bunch of us.” How was I to know that you’d equate a population of more than a billion people with the actions of less than one hundredth of one percent of that population? > Even though al Qaeda et al may desire the eminence of being emissaries of the “Islamic World” so much that they’ve convinced themselves that they have it, it’s eminently reasonable to doubt that al Qaeda’s as representative of the Islamic world as aQ likes to let on. > > So the only rebuttal to this part I have to uphold my end of the debate is a very dull and undoubtedly disappointing one. > Here it goes: > “al Qaeda et al” does not equal the “Islamic world” > “terrorists” does not equal the “Islamic world” > the “Islamic world” does not equal “al Qaeda et al” > the “Islamic world” does not equal “terrorists” What kind of clarifying questions should I’ve asked? Why did you equate “Islamic world” with the pronoun “they” in your clause, “they killed the whole bunch of us?” You don’t want to jump to conclusions except when you want to jump to conclusions? Also, you completely misunderstood or trying to misinterpret my statement that “windows of opportunity” exist between honest and reasonable people always and forever. Self-serving fanatics like UbL are trying to close them, while self-serving US bureaucrats are trying to bamboozle us with yelps, "The window is opening! The window is closing!” and they both can go to hell, hand in hand. This simple truth is supported by the cites **tomndebb** has provided, while you refused to do so. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/62 "2004-04-01T21:18:54Z")
apologies 4 shitty coding ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/63 "2004-04-01T21:36:18Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > What kind of clarifying questions should I’ve asked? > Why did you equate “Islamic world” with the pronoun “they” in your clause, “they killed the whole bunch of us?” That would be a good start. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/64 "2004-04-01T23:23:46Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > I presume that if Kerry gets elected, his administration will also lie, so lying/spin doctoring is not going to be a factor in who I cast my vote for come November. My vote is still up for grabs. A few more calm and rational responses such as yours from the Brotherhood of Bush Bashers[sup]**TM[/sup]** may cause me to give Kerry more careful consideration. May I take a shot at it? I like to believe there is a fundamental difference between lying about one’s sex life (Clinton) and lying to start/justify a war that has resulted in the death and maiming of thousands of people (Bush). Now, granted, we have no way of knowing whether a President Kerry will someday tell a lie that will lead to a similarly horrific and immoral event, but we _do_ know that Bush is capable of such a deed. That reason alone is sufficient for me to cast my vote for someone who is better-suited to replace Bush in November 2004. All of my other reasons for opposing Bush are merely icing on the cake. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/65 "2004-04-01T23:33:26Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > I like to believe there is a fundamental difference between lying about one’s sex life (Clinton) and lying to start/justify a war that has resulted in the death and maiming of thousands of people (Bush)… Of course there is a fundamental difference, but that aside, suppose if FDR would lie in 1937 that Hitler is close to producing A-bomb, somehow organize the per-emptive invasion of Germany and thus prevent many horrors from happening, what would be your opinion of such a highly hypothetical scenario? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/66 "2004-04-02T02:27:31Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > May I take a shot at it? > > I like to believe there is a fundamental difference between lying about one’s sex life (Clinton) and lying to start/justify a war that has resulted in the death and maiming of thousands of people (Bush). \ I think many people assumed that when GWB went into office, he was going to go after Saddam. I know I did. The only question was what the excuse was going to be. I’m among those that aren’t particularly disturbed about the Iraq war. I think the war casualties are probably less than Saddam himself was inflicting on the populace of Iraq. The most disturbing thing about the whole deal is the stupid lies Bush and his staff have told. **RTFirefly** referenced Watergate’s similarity to current events. I’ll agree. If Nixon had simply said something like: “Yeah, we broke in there. It’s dirty politics. Both sides do stuff like that” the whole deal would have blown over. Bush should have just said we’re going to remove Saddam because he’s a dangerous despot. Maybe not a real popular statement, but more palatable than all the lies. I’ll be watching Kerry closely. I might vote for him, or if nothing else, I can always write in the name of a Communist Party candidate.(If there is one this time) I did that once when I didn’t want either major candidate. There are only 68 registered voters at my polling place, so the community then spent years trying to figure out who the dirty commie was. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/67 "2004-04-02T03:08:41Z")
**JC of Mars** : them’s some big brass balls ya got there. I can’t believe no one figured it out though. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/68 "2004-04-02T08:12:17Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Of course there is a fundamental difference, but that aside, suppose if FDR would lie in 1937 that Hitler is close to producing A-bomb, somehow organize the per-emptive invasion of Germany and thus prevent many horrors from happening, what would be your opinion of such a highly hypothetical scenario? I’d still disapprove, since it’s the principle of the matter that’s involved. If FDR wants to invade Germany to prevent the atrocities against the Jews, then he should come out and say as such to the public. An open and democratic society requires an informed populace, so it may make informed choices in its laws and rulers; lying to the citizenry is IMO fundamentally undemocratic. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/69 "2004-04-02T13:03:41Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@SimonX](#): > > > > Originally Posted by SimonX > > What kind of clarifying questions should I’ve asked? > > Why did you equate “Islamic world” with the pronoun “they” in your clause, “they killed the whole bunch of us?” > > > [@New Iskander](#): > > > > That would be a good start. Okay, well feel free to rebutt whatever I said that needs rebutting. And if you like, you could go ahead and answer the question about why you hold the entire Islamic world responsible for 9-11. Whenever you get ready, just go for it. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/70 "2004-04-02T13:05:56Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > …lying to the citizenry is IMO fundamentally undemocratic. If the electorate does not have the ability to provide informed consent, then the government has **no _just_ powers** and has become a threat to America’s Liberty. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/71 "2004-04-02T17:38:33Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > I’d still disapprove, since it’s the principle of the matter that’s involved. If FDR wants to invade Germany to prevent the atrocities against the Jews, then he should come out and say as such to the public. Who said anything about the Jews? Nobody in US wanted to know what was beginning to happen to the Jews by 1937. Germany was way in violation of all sorts of international treaties with it’s military build-up already. Just make up a story about Hitler developing a super-bomb (there were grounds for it) and being close to completion, and then invade and occupy Germany. If that would happen we would forever remain completely ignorant of how much horror was spared to the world. Still disapprove? Still insist on principle? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/72 "2004-04-02T17:46:11Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > And if you like, you could go ahead and answer the question about why you hold the entire Islamic world responsible for 9-11. > > Whenever you get ready, just go for it. I think I already demonstrated sufficiently that I do not “hold the entire Islamic world responsible for 9-11” in my previous posts. I “went for it” on my own initiative, so your prompting is way too late. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/73 "2004-04-02T17:48:13Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Germany was way in violation of all sorts of international treaties with it’s military build-up already. Just **make up a story** about Hitler developing a super-bomb Sorry, you just lost the moral high ground there. > [@New Iskander](#): > > …and being close to completion, and then invade and occupy Germany. If that would happen we would forever remain completely ignorant of how much horror was spared to the world. Still disapprove? Still insist on principle? **Damn straight I do.** If FDR wanted to invade Germany to pre-emptively prevent Hitler from deploying a super-bomb, then send the spies and intelligence-gatherers to build the case, and then present it to the public. Again, an open and democratic society requires an informed electorate, not “making up stories” to shill the masses. What frightens me is that it seems like you sincerely believe that lying to the public – especially for an event as traumatizing as a war – is a perfectly acceptable means of governance. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/74 "2004-04-02T18:04:23Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Sorry, you just lost the moral high ground there. Sorry, I never tried to hold “the moral high ground”. > [@rjung](#): > > What frightens me is that it seems like you sincerely believe that lying to the public – especially for an event as traumatizing as a war – is a perfectly acceptable means of governance. What I believe is the least what should frighten you. Think of all the wars in history: how many of them were not based on lies and with complete support of the population? How many of them were started by US? BTW, I always opposed Bush on overdoing WMD cause, right from the start; it just doesn’t bother me as much as it does some people. Actually, it bothers me extremely very, very little. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/75 "2004-04-02T20:30:55Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > I think many people assumed that when GWB went into office, he was going to go after Saddam. I know I did. The only question was what the excuse was going to be. I’m among those that aren’t particularly disturbed about the Iraq war. I think the war casualties are probably less than Saddam himself was inflicting on the populace of Iraq. The most disturbing thing about the whole deal is the stupid lies Bush and his staff have told. > > Bush should have just said we’re going to remove Saddam because he’s a dangerous despot. Maybe not a real popular statement, but more palatable than all the lies. ``` That he was going after Saddam and not terrorists was obvious to everyone outside the US... I am still impressed by how ignorant the regular US joe is in relation to this. As for Iraq... no excuses were necessary. Just about the whole western hemisphere had no love for Saddam. Making a REAL case for war was hard... but not impossible. Making a somewhat Real case was pretty achievable... IF the US president were a reasonable and intelligent person and his minders didn't hate multilateralism. So what does Bush do ? He makes a FAKE case for the war ! Duh ! That is what I call offending other's intelligence. I'm no warmonger and I think Saddam deserved to be taken down. Certainly taking US troops off Saudi Arabia was a good reason. Stopping a cruel embargo was a reason. Reducing tension in the area was a good reason. Saving Iraqi lives was a good reason... etc...etc... Taking down Saddam while there is nothing else to take care of would have been easy and everyone would have helped out. Arabs included. Still there was this thing called terrorism that they seemed to forget about. So yes Iraq was at the wrong time and wrong way. ``` ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/76 "2004-04-02T20:42:46Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Sorry, I never tried to hold “the moral high ground”. Yes, I realize that now. > [@New Iskander](#): > > What I believe is the least what should frighten you. Think of all the wars in history: how many of them were not based on lies and with complete support of the population? How many of them were started by US? What’s the point of that? That because the US has started wars on lies in the past, that it’s okay to do so now? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/77 "2004-04-02T20:49:36Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > What I believe is the least what should frighten you. Think of all the wars in history: how many of them were not based on lies and with complete support of the population? How many of them were started by US? > [@rjung](#): > > What’s the point of that? That because the US has started wars on lies in the past, that it’s okay to do so now? Don’t be afraid of me. That’s the point. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/78 "2004-04-02T20:55:49Z")
I find it strange: can ANYONE make any sort of case that plans to invade Iraq didn’t hinder the War on Terror in Afghanistan. Read Clarke’s book on exactly what happened in Afghanistan. Instead of the “let’s get im!” image we all remember, the reality was that we went in tenatively, gradually, and telegraphed many of our major punches. We were clearly holding back, and the apparent reason was that we had to conserve our strength to be able to switch over to the real operations in Iraq, which was already on the agenda. Indeed, Clarke claims, and Woodward’s book confirms, instead of focusing most on meetings about finding out if more attacks were planned and how we could protect ourselves, the days after the attacks were spent battling over whether or not we should attack Iraq. In retrospect, this was an enourmous waste of time, based on precisely no evidence, and years of evidence that Iraq had cut off efforts to attack the US after we punished them in 1993. We’ve spent so much more money, time, and personnel on Iraq than on the War on Terror elsewhere that it’s almost laughable. > [@](#): > > I think many people assumed that when GWB went into office, he was going to go after Saddam. Maybe assisinate him, sure. But bush ran on the idea that the US should not be in the business of nation building. And when he said this, he was at the same time working to figure out how to get the U.S. involved in the biggest nation-building project since Japan, Germany, and Korea. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754/79 "2004-04-03T15:03:52Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@New Iskander](#): > > > > What I believe is the least what should frighten you. Think of all the wars in history: how many of them were not based on lies and with complete support of the population? How many of them were started by US? > > > [@rjung](#): > > > > What’s the point of that? That because the US has started wars on lies in the past, that it’s okay to do so now? > > > [@New Iskander](#): > > > > Don’t be afraid of me. That’s the point. You’re just full to overflowing with logical fallacies aintcha. No matter how many times you’ve done something wrong in the past, it still doesn’t make it right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-invasion-harming-the-war-on-terror-the-smoking-gun/236754.md?page=3)