# Iraq is a total failure and is still on the brink of civil war. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752 "2009-06-14T18:48:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/21 "2009-06-15T01:20:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I think American attitude will depend entirely on whether or not they get it together. If they get it together they’ll probably be resentful, begrudging but willing to do business. If they can’t get it together, they’ll blame us forever. I expect that they’ll “blame us forever” regardless. They should, after all. If they do “get it together”, I expect that a major unifying factor would be a burning hatred for America. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/22 "2009-06-15T01:21:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I expect that they’ll “blame us forever” regardless. They should, after all. If they do “get it together”, I expect that a major unifying factor would be a burning hatred for America. I don’t think that’s automatic. We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/23 "2009-06-15T01:29:03Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I don’t think that’s automatic. We slaughtered their friends and families, wrecked their country, and in general screwed them over in a war of pure aggression. All the while lecturing everyone about how good and pure our motives were. Why _ **wouldn’t** _ they hate us ? We’d certainly hate anyone who did that to us. If aliens attacked America tomorrow, killed tens of millions, wrecked the infrastructure, and imposed their own according-to-them-superior government we’d sure hate them. Regardless of what came after. You are simply trying to pretend that they are going to buy into America’s self delusion that it is a heroic rescuer, and not a thuggish aggressor. No matter what lies we tell ourselves, our victims don’t believe it and never have. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/24 "2009-06-15T01:35:36Z")
It’s pretty much an objective fact that the Iraqi people were better off under Saddam than they have been at any point in the last six years. Given the stated goals and time line of the neocons in the Bush administration, that makes it a failure. No amount of positive developments now or in the future can redeem that. Let me put it this way: if I’m leading an IT project at work, and it gets completed after meeting a tenth of the initial scope, costing twenty times the initial budget, and missing the deadline by an order of magnitude, would I be at all justified in calling the endeavor a “success”? Hell no I wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/25 "2009-06-15T01:42:34Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > It’s pretty much an objective fact that the Iraqi people were better off under Saddam than they have been at any point in the last six years. Given the stated goals and time line of the neocons in the Bush administration, that makes it a failure. No amount of positive developments now or in the future can redeem that. That doesn’t at all mean that. War is a messy process and building it back up takes longer than tearing it down. That’s just the reality. Anyone who expected this to take less than a decade walked around with blinders on. > [@](#): > > Let me put it this way: if I’m leading an IT project at work, and it gets completed after meeting a tenth of the initial scope, costing twenty times the initial budget, and missing the deadline by an order of magnitude, would I be at all justified in calling the endeavor a “success”? Hell no I wouldn’t. Depends on whether you promised to roll out 150 servers in a week or not. The initial time estimates were obviously outright lies. But if Iraq in ten-fifteen years is a flourishing Democracy things will look a lot different in retrospect. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/26 "2009-06-15T01:50:01Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > But if Iraq in ten-fifteen years is a flourishing Democracy things will look a lot different in retrospect. And if the people we killed all rise from the dead, and all the infrastructure we blew up magically reassembles itself things will look different as well. But that’s not going to happen, nor is Iraq going to become a flourishing democracy - or flourishing anything - anytime soon. We laid waste to it, scattered and impoverished the people, unleashed the fanatics and the criminals. And as I said, if it did become a democracy, it would be our enemy; only a dictatorship ruled by an American puppet would not be our enemy. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/27 "2009-06-15T02:23:13Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That doesn’t at all mean that. War is a messy process and building it back up takes longer than tearing it down. That’s just the reality. Anyone who expected this to take less than a decade walked around with blinders on. Except that this is not what we were told at all. In fact, we were told that it would be short and sweet and cost close to nothing because the Iraqis would open their arms and buy flowers for the Americans with their own money. So, with that measuring stick, it has been a failure. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/28 "2009-06-15T02:25:52Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The initial time estimates were obviously outright lies. But if Iraq in ten-fifteen years is a flourishing Democracy things will look a lot different in retrospect. They’re 0 for 3 on the triple constraint. How the hell is that not a failure? Whether Iraq becomes a flourishing democracy five or ten or fifteen years from now is immaterial. Invading was an idiot move from the get-go, and the Bush administration compounded the idiocy by their gross ignorance of what it would take to actually execute their plan. Any future “success” will be despite, not because of, the initial decision to invade. I mean, if one of my cats shits on the carpet, and I come around and clean it up, should my cat get credit for the fact that my carpet is clean? ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/29 "2009-06-15T02:26:32Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Our Diplomatic prestige will come back up in the world, and meanwhile we have assembly lines building bullets and cruise missiles right now. I don’t understand what this means. What assembly lines? And are you saying they are good or bad? It is not a loaded question; I honestly don’t understand the point you are making here. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/30 "2009-06-15T02:29:56Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Except that this is not what we were told at all. In fact, we were told that it would be short and sweet and cost close to nothing because the Iraqis would open their arms and buy flowers for the Americans with their own money. So, with that measuring stick, it has been a failure. And if Iraq, instead of turning into a “flourishing democracy” like **mswas** is talking about completely collapses in civil war, I’m sure we’ll be told that’s a victory. And if it turns into an Islamic dictatorship we’ll be told that’s a victory. If Saddam rises from the dead and Iraq becomes the center of a new zombie empire, we’ll be told that’s a victory. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/31 "2009-06-15T02:31:26Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > America blew one of the most beautiful cities in the world to shit. I’ve never heard Baghdad described that way before. Maybe it was, in the Middle Ages . . . ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/32 "2009-06-15T02:33:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ve never heard Baghdad described that way before. Maybe it was, in the Middle Ages . . . “One of the more historic cities in the world” would be perhaps a better claim. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/33 "2009-06-15T02:57:33Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Know anywhere that archives that table? I’d like to see where Iraq was in December 02. The [Failed State Index](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state) was started in 2005. Iraq’s ranks so far: 2005: #4 2006: #4 2007: #2 2008: #5 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/34 "2009-06-15T03:02:08Z")
[QUOTE=black rabbit] Let me put it this way: if I’m leading an IT project at work, and it gets completed after meeting a tenth of the initial scope, costing twenty times the initial budget, and missing the deadline by an order of magnitude, would I be at all justified in calling the endeavor a “success”? Hell no I wouldn’t. [/QUOTE] Sure you would…as long as the customer signed off on the changes, and most importantly of all…as long as they paid. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/35 "2009-06-15T03:32:05Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Know anywhere that archives that table? I’d like to see where Iraq was in December 02. By the 12 indices used to evaluate Iraq is considerably worse in pretty much all of them. I mean you have to be totally brainwashed _and_ misinformed to say Iraq is better off today than ten years ago, even with the sanctions in place then. Iraq has been an unmitigated disaster. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/36 "2009-06-15T05:30:40Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Sure you would…as long as the customer signed off on the changes, and most importantly of all…as long as they paid. 😛 > > -XT Sir! Some IT-type persons are the very paragons of strictly ethical behavior. Even faced with the sore temptations of customers who haven’t the foggiest notion whether they are being screwed or not, they stand firm against the twin perils of greed and sloth. I know such as these exist, though I haven’t actually met either of them. It is also wise not to belittle that ilk, they are subtle, and quick to anger. I am very careful, and when I call tech support, I get a hot young MIT grad with a voice like silk rubbing itself off. She answers the phone after two rings, fixes the problem in 2 minutes, and then talks dirty to me for about half an hour. You, your call gets routed to the Punjab, you listen to Barry Manilow till you weep, then a guy comes on who talks like Gunga Din but swears his name is “Chuck”. And its a hardware issue, consult your vendor. You have been fairly warned. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/37 "2009-06-15T06:00:09Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I have several iraqi neighbors. They are depressed because Iraq has been fundamentally changed. The sects that are fighting now, intermarried and lived next to each other with relatively little trouble when Saddam was in charge. Over half the college students in those times were women who were free not to wear veils or Hajibs. > These people are here now and will probably not go back. They are professionals and fled when the educated were being shot. They wonder what they could go back to. The government is different. opportunities are not defined. Millions of people are in other middle east countries. Many of them will return. What will they face? There is unlikely to be peace for many years. Like it or not, this was the inevitable result of a free Iraq. The Shia had been repressed and victimized by the minority Sunni for years. With democracy the Shia are now in charge of the country. The West might not like what they do with power but the country is still far better off than under the tyrant Saddam. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/38 "2009-06-15T06:02:40Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Like it or not, this was the inevitable result of a free Iraq. The Shia had been repressed and victimized by the minority Sunni for years. With democracy the Shia are now in charge of the country. The West might not like what they do with power but the country is still far better off than under the tyrant Saddam. As pointed out by **sailor** and others, no it’s not. It’s worse. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/39 "2009-06-15T14:49:03Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Except that this is not what we were told at all. In fact, we were told that it would be short and sweet and cost close to nothing because the Iraqis would open their arms and buy flowers for the Americans with their own money. So, with that measuring stick, it has been a failure. Yes you’re right, the unrealistic expectations they cynically sold us in order to get us to sign off on something that they knew would be nastier than their sales pitch, were unmet. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/40 "2009-06-15T14:53:12Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes you’re right, the unrealistic expectations they cynically sold us in order to get us to sign off on something that they knew would be nastier than their sales pitch, were unmet. What makes you think they knew it would be nastier than they claimed ? They seem to have believed their own propaganda about how easy it would be, that the Iraqis would just roll over and become our friends, that no large occupying force was needed, that no investment for rebuilding would be needed and so on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752.md?page=3)