# Iraq is a total failure and is still on the brink of civil war. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752 "2009-06-14T18:48:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/81 "2009-06-16T15:14:24Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > You just ignore all the facts. The fact is that Iraq is among the five worst failed states according to the twelve criteria in that page. You just ignore that and pontificate on generalities. The facts are clear. The invasion was inmoral but it has also failed. That is a fact. Iraq and Iraqis were better off ten years ago than they are now. That is a fact. It’s funny how in this post you accuse me of ‘pontificating’ on generalities. You have yet to present a single piece of factual evidence or write anything that is more than a mere slogan. > [@](#): > > You can tell yourself it will take decades but the fact is that since the invasion the Iraqis have paid a huge price, in lives and in their quality of life. America is the cause of the problem , not the solution. Yes, Iraqis have paid a huge price. And you are entitled to your opinion, but asserting it over and over does not equate to me ignoring facts. You’d have to present some for me to ignore them. I haven’t ignored anything. Yes, currently Iraq is a failed state and yes a lot of Iraqis have died. I haven’t ignored that. When you’ve got more than slogans I’ll be more than happy to read what you have to present. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/82 "2009-06-16T15:19:41Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > I really don’t get how an additional fifteen years of military occupation is supposed to transform Iraq into a flourishing secular democracy. Hell, it spent _thirty_ years under a secular totalitarian dictatorship, and the lid still blew off after we invaded. > > The only really moral solution I see is an immediate, drastic drawn-down of our troop strength, followed by infrastructural aid at least equivalent to our current yearly military expenditures. Call it a trillion dollars or so over the next ten years. It’d probably be a good idea if we made that aid conditional on UN-certified free and fair elections. > > Handing the Bush administration over for trial by the Iraqis wouldn’t be a bad idea, either. That aid will be misappropriated the instant troops are gone. That’s part of the reason troops are there. They’d be fighting over the aid, and then we’d be using the aid as a method by which to control them, which isn’t terribly effective. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/83 "2009-06-16T15:22:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, btw, “your position is not worthy of debate” is an even chickenshittier tactic than claiming a comprehensive rebuttal to be a “personal attack”. I don’t understand this concept. Why are people required to respond to moronic hyperbole? I skipped a whole lot of posts from two of the main posters on this page because it was just hystrionic nonsense. Appeals to emotion. Why should anyone have a responsibility to engage that kind of stuff? I think **xtisme** is doing an admirable job. I already voiced the parts where I disagree with him, and the rest I pretty much agree. I think all of us here wish we’d never invaded Iraq, but that’s a moot point and not even worth discussing IMV. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/84 "2009-06-16T15:31:35Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Why are people required to respond to moronic hyperbole…hystrionic nonsense. Appeals to emotion. Why should anyone have a responsibility to engage that kind of stuff? Assuming your conclusion. Another fallacy, ya know. > [@](#): > > I think all of us here wish we’d never invaded Iraq, but that’s a moot point and not even worth discussing IMV. Don’t you think one’s responsibilities for one’s actions continue after the action is over? “Not worth discussing” indeed. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/85 "2009-06-16T15:33:08Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That aid will be misappropriated the instant troops are gone. That’s part of the reason troops are there. So it won’t be like our sending billions baled in hundred-dollar bills over there, only to see them just disappear into the sand. Good to know. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/86 "2009-06-16T15:35:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s funny how in this post you accuse me of ‘pontificating’ on generalities. You have yet to present a single piece of factual evidence or write anything that is more than a mere slogan. No person is blinder than those who do not want to see. I have posted a link to a Wikipedia page which shows Iraq is among the top 5 failed states in the world but you do not dispute that, you just ignore it. It might be difficult for you to digest but it is a FACT not a slogan. > [@](#): > > The Crisis States Research Centre defines a “failed state” as a condition of “state collapse” – i.e., a state that can no longer perform its basic security and development functions and that has no effective control over its territory and borders. > > Indicators of state vulnerability > > 1-Demographic pressures > 2-Massive movement of refugees and internally displaced peoples > 3-Legacy of vengeance-seeking group grievance > 4-Chronic and sustained human flight > 5-Uneven economic development along group lines > 6-Sharp and/or severe economic decline > 7-Criminalization and/or delegitimisation of the state > 8-Progressive deterioration of public service > 9-Widespread violation of human rights > 10-Security apparatus as ‘state within a state’ > 11-Rise of factionalised elites > 12-Intervention of other states or external factors > > Failed States List > > 1. Somalia (+2) > 2. Sudan (-1) > 3. Zimbabwe (+1) > 4. Chad (+1) > 5. Iraq (-3) > 6. Democratic Republic of the Congo (+1) > 7. Afghanistan (+1) > 8. Côte d’Ivoire (-2) > 9. Pakistan (+3) > 10. Central African Republic (0) There’s a FACT for you. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/87 "2009-06-16T16:06:07Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That aid will be misappropriated the instant troops are gone. That’s part of the reason troops are there. They’d be fighting over the aid, and then we’d be using the aid as a method by which to control them, which isn’t terribly effective. Ah, the white man’s burden. I see. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/88 "2009-06-16T17:10:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Assuming your conclusion. Another fallacy, ya know. That fallacy definitely doesn’t mean what you think it means. I’m not assuming anything. I am ignoring hystrionic rhetoric. If they want to get down to real arguments I’ll pay attention. > [@](#): > > Don’t you think one’s responsibilities for one’s actions continue after the action is over? Yes. > [@](#): > > “Not worth discussing” indeed. Ok, so tell me what’s your plan to stop the United States from invading Iraq in 2003? If you know of a way to stop something that’s already happened I’m all ears. If not, the rest is just onanism and completely uninteresting. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/89 "2009-06-16T17:12:25Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > No person is blinder than those who do not want to see. I have posted a link to a Wikipedia page which shows Iraq is among the top 5 failed states in the world but you do not dispute that, you just ignore it. It might be difficult for you to digest but it is a FACT not a slogan. > > There’s a FACT for you. Yes, Iraq is fifth on the failed state list and…? I never argued against that. This is why there is nothing to discuss with you. You keep repeating your ONE SINGLE fact over and over. If Iraq wasn’t a failed state it wouldn’t need to be rebuilt now would it? Would Japan and Germany be considered failed states in 1951? No one has even addressed this question. I would still like an answer to it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/90 "2009-06-16T17:13:54Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > Ah, the white man’s burden. I see. Oh slogans, the height of intellectual discourse. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/91 "2009-06-16T17:18:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That I’m not assuming anything. Here, it’s that a position you do not already hold cannot be anything more than > [@](#): > > hystrionic rhetoric > [@](#): > > Yes…Ok, so tell me what’s your plan to stop the United States from invading Iraq in 2003? The discussion is about what we have a responsibility to do now and in the future. You did just admit we have such a responsibility, didn’t you? Are you willing to discuss what it entails or aren’t you? > [@](#): > > the rest is just onanism and completely uninteresting. See above. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/92 "2009-06-16T18:13:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The discussion is about what we have a responsibility to do now and in the future. You did just admit we have such a responsibility, didn’t you? Are you willing to discuss what it entails or aren’t you? Yes, precisely, welcome to the thread you have been posting in. Glad we are now on the same page. So discussing what is happening NOW and not what happened six years ago, is what this thread is about. So what we agree on: The United States bears a responsibility to the people of Iraq due to the fact that we broke their country. Ok, now what? What do YOU think that responsibility should entail? But first, answer whether you think that Iraq is completely broken, whether we can salvage any success from it, and whether or not you think they are on the brink of a civil war. **YogSosoth** ’s argument that American troops would not be required if they were not on the brink of a civil war is a very good one. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/93 "2009-06-16T18:22:53Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So discussing what is happening NOW and not what happened six years ago, is what this thread is about. Then what was that crap from you about how to go back in time and prevent the invasion? :mad: > [@](#): > > What do YOU think that responsibility should entail? But first, answer whether you think that Iraq is completely broken, whether we can salvage any success from it, and whether or not you think they are on the brink of a civil war. IOW, you aren’t willing to discuss it \*yourself \*after all. A disappointment but not a surprise. > [@](#): > > **YogSosoth** ’s argument that American troops would not be required if they were not on the brink of a civil war is a very good one. The argument that a partition of the country cannot be prevented, and is already well along despite what anyone might like, and the military’s only useful role can be to continue to facilitate it as peacefully as possible, and the US must simply deal with the fact of an independent Kurdistan, an Iran-dominated Shiastan, and a Saudi-dominated Sunnistan is an even better one, and has been for quite some years. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/94 "2009-06-16T18:32:09Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, precisely, welcome to the thread you have been posting in. Glad we are now on the same page. So discussing what is happening NOW and not what happened six years ago, is what this thread is about. What is happening NOW is a continuation of what was happening then. > [@mswas](#): > > The United States bears a responsibility to the people of Iraq due to the fact that we broke their country. > > Ok, now what? What do YOU think that responsibility should entail? Leave before we do more harm; we are neither capable or willing do do anything but harm to them. > [@mswas](#): > > But first, answer whether you think that Iraq is completely broken, whether we can salvage any success from it, and whether or not you think they are on the brink of a civil war. Since our motives in Iraq have always been wholly inimical to them, the last thing I want is for America to get any “success” from it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/95 "2009-06-16T18:35:04Z")
_snipped irrelevant personal bullshit_ > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The argument that a partition of the country cannot be prevented, and is already well along despite what anyone might like, and the military’s only useful role can be to continue to facilitate it as peacefully as possible, and the US must simply deal with the fact of an independent Kurdistan, an Iran-dominated Shiastan, and a Saudi-dominated Sunnistan is an even better one, and has been for quite some years. Well a Federal partition of Iraq may very well be a good thing in the long run. I kind of hope people are thinking in that direction. I know Joe Biden was in the campaign. An independent Kurdistan is not necessary, a three state solution under a single federal government is also viable. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/96 "2009-06-16T18:36:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Leave before we do more harm; we are neither capable or willing do do anything but harm to them. I remain unconvinced of this assertion. > [@](#): > > Since our motives in Iraq have always been wholly inimical to them, the last thing I want is for America to get any “success” from it. Yea, this is meaningless hyperbole. There is some sort of hateful malicious intent in your mind on the part of the American government that is nebulous to me. It seems very clear and meaningful to you, but it isn’t to me. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/97 "2009-06-16T18:48:39Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I remain unconvinced of this assertion. Well, while one can say that the situation in Cyprus will never be solved the important thing is that for peace sake big foreign powers need to stay away and allow entities like the UN to keep the de facto status of separation from becoming a violent one. [http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unficyp/](http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unficyp/) The way to succeed is to allow other nations to help and develop Iraq, even if the nation remains divided. We have to let it go. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/98 "2009-06-16T18:52:16Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, Iraq is fifth on the failed state list and…? > > I never argued against that. This is why there is nothing to discuss with you. You keep repeating your ONE SINGLE fact over and over. If Iraq wasn’t a failed state it wouldn’t need to be rebuilt now would it? Great. America has taken a functioning country and six years later it is a failed state. Something to be proud of. > [@mswas](#): > > Would Japan and Germany be considered failed states in 1951? No one has even addressed this question. I would still like an answer to it. I have already answered that. The answer is tha NO. Japan and Germany were NOT failed states in 1951. There was no civil war. There was no violence. The Governments were in control. They were safe to live and travel. Industry and economy were being rebuilt. Only an extremely ignorant person would say the situation in Japan or Germany in 1951 resembled, even remotely, that of Iraq today. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/99 "2009-06-16T18:53:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, while one can say that the situation in Cyprus will never be solved the important thing is that for peace sake big foreign powers need to stay away and allow entities like the UN to keep the de facto status of separation from becoming a violent one. > > [http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unficyp/](http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unficyp/) > > The way to succeed is to allow other nations to help and develop Iraq, even if the nation remains divided. > > We have to let it go. I agree with you, but the timing on letting it go is important. Also Cyprus is a bit different from Iraq. In Iraq it’s America vs the Iraqi people in terms of the people vying for power. In Cyprus it was Greece and Turkey trying to use it as a client state. (I know little about Cyprus so feel free to correct me) The difference being that America isn’t competing against a separate foreign power. I agree we should get out of Iraq, but I don’t agree that it should be without condition. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/100 "2009-06-16T18:55:08Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Great. America has taken a functioning country and six years later it is a failed state. Something to be proud of. The notion that Iraq was functioning before 2003 is a bit of a canard. Yes, it was functioning BETTER than it is now, but it wasn’t that great. If the failed state index was in place in 2002, you can bet your ass Iraq would have been on it, the same being true in 1991 or 1985. > [@](#): > > I have already answered that. The answer is tha NO. Japan and Germany were NOT failed states in 1951. There was no civil war. There was no violence. The Governments were in control. They were safe to live and travel. Industry and economy were being rebuilt. Only an extremely ignorant person would say the situation in Japan or Germany in 1951 resembled, even remotely, that of Iraq today. I didn’t say it resembles. It’s called a ‘question’, and your need to insult is kind of funny considering I asked a question and didn’t make an assertion. See people ask questions when they don’t know the answer to something, only an extremely ignorant person doesn’t know that. I’m sorry if I missed your prior answer to that question. Did you back it up with cites or did you just assert it? If it’s easy to know the answer then someone who knows the answer should surely be able to come up with cites very easily. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752.md?page=6)