# Iraq is a total failure and is still on the brink of civil war. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752 "2009-06-14T18:48:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/101 "2009-06-16T19:42:57Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Oh slogans, the height of intellectual discourse. :rolleyes: Mr. Kipling would agree. Why the hell should we get a say in what the Iraqis do with any reparations money? Since they’re capable of democracy on American terms imposed at the barrel of a gun, why wouldn’t they be capable of spending whatever money we send them wisely? We don’t get a say in the future of Iraq. We just have to foot the bill. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/102 "2009-06-16T20:02:04Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The notion that Iraq was functioning before 2003 is a bit of a canard. Yes, it was functioning BETTER than it is now, but it wasn’t that great. If the failed state index was in place in 2002, you can bet your ass Iraq would have been on it, the same being true in 1991 or 1985. Do you have evidence to back up that assertion? It runs counter to most neutral accounts of Iraq’s functional level before the war that I’m familiar with. Not degree of political freedom, but degree of societal function, with factors like availability of electricity, consumer goods, education, and safety on the streets considered. I certainly don’t believe it qualified as a ‘failed state’ prior to our invasion. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/103 "2009-06-16T20:28:34Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > Mr. Kipling would agree. > > Why the hell should we get a say in what the Iraqis do with any reparations money? Since they’re capable of democracy on American terms imposed at the barrel of a gun, why wouldn’t they be capable of spending whatever money we send them wisely? > > We don’t get a say in the future of Iraq. We just have to foot the bill. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/104 "2009-06-16T20:30:51Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Do you have evidence to back up that assertion? It runs counter to most neutral accounts of Iraq’s functional level before the war that I’m familiar with. Not degree of political freedom, but degree of societal function, with factors like availability of electricity, consumer goods, education, and safety on the streets considered. > > I certainly don’t believe it qualified as a ‘failed state’ prior to our invasion. Indonesia is on the list of failed states. You think Iraq was better off than Indonesia? ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/105 "2009-06-16T20:36:29Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I disagree. Why? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/106 "2009-06-16T20:37:27Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Indonesia is on the list of failed states. No it is not. Stop making shit up. Please. I suppose every country is on the list of failed states because it is just a classification by the measure in which they fulfill certain criteria but Indonesia is not on the top 20 list of failed states while Iraq has been consistently since the invasion among the top 5. > [@](#): > > 1. Somalia (+2) > 2. Sudan (-1) > 3. Zimbabwe (+1) > 4. Chad (+1) > 5. Iraq (-3) > 6. Democratic Republic of the Congo (+1) > 7. Afghanistan (+1) > 8. Côte d’Ivoire (-2) > 9. Pakistan (+3) > 10. Central African Republic (0) > 11. Guinea (-2) > 12. Bangladesh (+4) > 13. Burma/Myanmar(+2) > 14. Haiti (-3) > 15. North Korea (-2) > 16. Ethiopia (+2) > 17. Uganda (-1) > 18. Lebanon (+10)[18] > 19. Nigeria (-1) > 20. Sri Lanka (+5)[19] Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/107 "2009-06-16T20:39:04Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Do you have evidence to back up that assertion? It runs counter to most neutral accounts of Iraq’s functional level before the war that I’m familiar with. Not degree of political freedom, but degree of societal function, with factors like availability of electricity, consumer goods, education, and safety on the streets considered. > > I certainly don’t believe it qualified as a ‘failed state’ prior to our invasion. Over half the Iraqis in college were women before we took over. They could wear western clothes if they chose. Women worked outside the home, drove cars and had opportunities. The electric and plumbing were not great. If you managed to capture Sadaam or his kids attention it could go badly for you. The country was under US sanctions and medicines were hard to come by. Commerce was limited. That was largely due to us and the UN. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/108 "2009-06-16T21:31:49Z")
**sailor** [Yes it is](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4350&page=1). It’s number 60. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/109 "2009-06-16T22:13:23Z")
The utter stupidity of taking the first and last elements of a list sorted by a certain criteria and claim they are the same is just astounding. I would draw the conclusion that of the 60 countries listed Indonesia is the best off and Iraq is among the worst five. But you think it means they are all the same? What kind of bullshit is that? The utter stupidity of your affirmation is just astounding. Take a [sorted list of all the countries on earth ordered by per capita gross domestic product](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita). The richest countries would be at the top. And the “least rich countries” would be at the bottom. But since they are all on the list you would claim they are all equally rich or equally poor. I see. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/110 "2009-06-16T22:15:12Z")
Still following along here (gods know why), and don’t really want to get heavily into this discussion, but just wanted to point out a couple things. From your link, mswas: > [@](#): > > This year, Somalia claims the unenviable distinction of being the state most at risk of failure. In many ways, Somalia has failed already, as the unpopular transitional government lacks control of the streets of Mogadishu—much less the rest of the country. The loose coalition of Islamic clerics and militia leaders that captured the capital in 2006 was routed in the early weeks of 2007 with the help of Ethiopian troops, who have since stayed on to battle the remnants of the Islamist insurgency. The fighting has yet to produce anything resembling a victor; if anything, the country’s clan chaos continues unabated in the unruly streets, while pirates stalk the waters offshore. What the fighting has successfully produced is a refugee nightmare, with some 700,000 people fleeing Mogadishu last year. > > … > > Of course, the countries appearing among the 60 weakest states are not always there because of unforeseen disasters. Take Israel, which has slid in the rankings each year and now makes its first appearance in the top 60. Israel’s inability to fully integrate its Arab minority, its sharp economic disparities, and the increased factionalization of its political leaders did not arise overnight. And though Israel owes much of its ranking to conditions in the West Bank, the continued hardships in the territories cannot be divorced from the stability of Israel itself. It shows that the fates of neighbors can be just as critical to the fortunes of otherwise stable states. And that is a reality that should shock no one. I wanted to point this out because what this seems to be an index of states most AT RISK OF FAILURE. Of which, Iraq is supposedly 5th. So…it’s not really about FAILED state, per se…but states with the potential to fail in the future. Also, I’ll just point out the Egypt and Israel are both on that list as well…neither of which, IMHO, are likely to fail any time soon. Interestingly, Iran is ALSO on that list (as are another of states that would probably be a bit surprised they are supposedly on the cusp of failing…or, as is being claimed in this thread are already ‘failed states’ :p). Anyway, carry on. This is a simply fascinating discussion… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/111 "2009-06-16T22:17:21Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **sailor** [Yes it is](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4350&page=1). > > It’s number 60. > > Sigh. That’s a list of states based on indicators of instability and potential instability, not a list of how ‘failed’ a state is. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/112 "2009-06-16T22:17:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **sailor** [Yes it is](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4350&page=1). > > It’s number 60. > > Sigh. :sigh: Indonesia is declared “borderline”. You are ignoring the color coding. Iraq was/is in the critical stage for the last 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/113 "2009-06-16T22:23:04Z")
:smack: You guys are right…I missed that too. It’s on this page [here](http://www.fundforpeace.org/web/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=229&Itemid=366). Niger is actually the cut off for the critical states. I knew I should have just stayed out of here! -XT ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/114 "2009-06-16T22:23:17Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well a Federal partition of Iraq may very well be a good thing in the long run. I kind of hope people are thinking in that direction. Ahem. Just where the \*hell \*have you \*been \*since 2003? The partitioning process is nearly _complete_. It was, as it has been elsewhere when it was at least a managed process, a very predictable response by the people to the absence of any central power able to maintain order. Petraeus, to give him credit, realized that helping the process go to completion was the only approach left to reducing the death rate, even if he has had to join the pretense that “the surge worked” instead. > [@](#): > > I know Joe Biden was in the campaign. His opinion has only slightly more effect to it now than it did then. It’s a fact of life, and has been for some time now. It wasn’t a “campaign”, btw, just an attempt to make the least-worst of the mess. > [@](#): > > An independent Kurdistan is not necessary, a three state solution under a single federal government is also viable. You might go find out what the Kurds think of that. It isn’t up to you, Obama, or really anybody else but them. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/115 "2009-06-17T00:25:16Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > The utter stupidity of taking the first and last elements of a list sorted by a certain criteria and claim they are the same is just astounding. I would draw the conclusion that of the 60 countries listed Indonesia is the best off and Iraq is among the worst five. But you think it means they are all the same? What kind of bullshit is that? The utter stupidity of your affirmation is just astounding. Well it’s a good thing you are astounded by something I never said then. Bail that straw and astound yourself as much as you like. I can’t even respond to this anymore than that because you are not even responding to what I’ve said you’re just making shit up and claiming I said it. All I said was that Indonesia is on the list. I didn’t say it was the same. I just asked where you thought Iraq would rate on the list prior to that. _snip irrelevant pedantry about reading tables._ ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/116 "2009-06-17T00:28:21Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > That’s a list of states based on indicators of instability and potential instability, not a list of how ‘failed’ a state is. Actually it is specifically the failed state index. My question was about where Iraq would come on the list in comparison to Indonesia which capped off the list that I was using. I never drew any equivalencies whatsoever, I just used Indonesia as a placemarker. I really wish people would pay attention to the give and take before they start doling out advice. It’s really getting tedious around here when people don’t pay attention to a back and forth that’s gone on for several posts. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/117 "2009-06-17T00:30:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Ahem. Just where the \*hell \*have you \*been \*since 2003? The partitioning process is nearly _complete_. It was, as it has been elsewhere when it was at least a managed process, a very predictable response by the people to the absence of any central power able to maintain order. Petraeus, to give him credit, realized that helping the process go to completion was the only approach left to reducing the death rate, even if he has had to join the pretense that “the surge worked” instead. Is it a fact of policy or just a fact of people on feet on the ground? There’s a difference. I’m perfectly aware that people have left their neighborhoods. > [@](#): > > His opinion has only slightly more effect to it now than it did then. It’s a fact of life, and has been for some time now. It wasn’t a “campaign”, btw, just an attempt to make the least-worst of the mess. When he was running for President, which is what i was referring to, was certainly a ‘campaign’. > [@](#): > > You might go find out what the Kurds think of that. It isn’t up to you, Obama, or really anybody else but them. Actually it’s up to Turkey more than it is up to the Kurds. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752/118 "2009-06-17T02:18:39Z")
Millions have fled the country leaving their homes. Will they come back? Will they be allowed to come back? What is in Iraq for them now? Who the hell has a clue what will happen in the next few years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-a-total-failure-and-is-still-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/499752.md?page=5)