# Iraq is free...where are the women? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685 "2003-04-10T00:56:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/1 "2003-04-10T00:56:10Z")
Mrs. CaptMurdock and I have been watching the news coverage of “the Liberation of Iraq” where men have been dragging down statues of Saddam and boys run through the streets beating on his head in effigy… …but we have not seen any women (or girls) in the footage. Remember Afghanistan? Plenty of women out in the streets there. But not in Iraq. Strange. So, in this new, “democratic” Iraq, are women going to have any rights whatsoever? ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/2 "2003-04-10T01:02:25Z")
I actually saw a group of women in the same plaza as the statue molesting men. They didnt seem to want to add their slippers into the fray but they were there. They seemed a bit more cautious as to commit to the idea that Saddam is permanently gone. The women are there but not as vocal or visually obvious. I think Iraq women just tell their husbands to _go out there and show them how they feel_ but wait in a safe spot. ---
**Author:** ![MamaHen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@MamaHen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MamaHen)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/3 "2003-04-10T02:13:49Z")
I saw some women on the news today. I was pretty impressed, they took the time to put on make-up before going out to join the celebration. They weren’t joining in on the statue attack but they were smiling and waving. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/4 "2003-04-10T02:49:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CaptMurdock \* > \*\*Mrs. CaptMurdock and I have been watching the news coverage of “the Liberation of Iraq” where men have been dragging down statues of Saddam and boys run through the streets beating on his head in effigy… > > …but we have not seen any women (or girls) in the footage. Remember Afghanistan? Plenty of women out in the streets there. But not in Iraq. Strange. > > So, in this new, “democratic” Iraq, are women going to have any rights whatsoever? \*\* Iraq was known (or at least popularly presented )as a progessive Muslim state. Although for the most part the women seen on the news channels were basically wearing black burkas (sans veil) - their education and health-care was state-sponsored. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/5 "2003-04-10T05:10:05Z")
I think Muslims do many things segregated by sex–funerals, dancing, etc. Maybe celebrations, too? ---
**Author:** ![Zorro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ad7895/32.png) [@Zorro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zorro)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/6 "2003-04-10T08:17:28Z")
You’re all missing the important point that posturing, shouting, looting and breaking things are essentially male activities. Ther women are just waiting for the blokes to let it out of their system. ---
**Author:** ![DEVA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@DEVA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DEVA)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/7 "2003-04-10T09:57:31Z")
I have also noticed the lack of Iraqi women in the news coverage. But then a couple of days ago, when America supposedly “bombed” Saddam in a HOUSE (wtf?!), they showed footage of men standing near the wrecked home. One of the men had about three or four young girls (approx. aged 12-16) standing near him. They appeared to be in Western-type clothing and were un-cloaked. I remember thinking that the girls were strikingly pretty. The looting issue leads to a different topic for me. Rather than hijack, I’ll just start a different thread… ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/8 "2003-04-10T10:14:11Z")
If it is not too much to ask let me please ask that all keep the following in mind when trying to speak to Iraq: (a) It is not a homogenous society, but divided between Shiite & Sunni, Arab and Kurd, and each has its particular habits and dress. (b) Given the demographics and sociology of Baghdad, you can count on the following (i) the majority of celebrators and looters come from the most ‘disfavored’ segements of society, recently urbanized Shiites from the south. Lower education levels, lower income levels, more conservative habits in general than the more urbane and secularized Sunni center. (High level generalizations of course) (ii) Careful observation will show a marked difference between the Sunni middle class and the shiite underclass. That the women wear the black abayas suggests they are relatively recent urban immigrants, from the country side, and likely to be shiite, by demographics alone. © in near mob conditions, it is probably wise for women to hang back, above all given the attitudes of the lower rungs of society about mixing. This does not ipso facto hold for middle class and above, indeed often does not, although that has changed in recent years. Iraq has a long tradition of secularism, that is true – however this was top down secularism, not bottom up secularism. It also, as has been typical historically in the region and outside, been an urban phenomena, so again the recently urbanized have attitudes often at striking contrast with the old urbanites. However, in recent years, let us say the past two decades, there has been a return to the hijaab (head covering) among Muslims as part of an increasing level of religiousity and ‘fundamentalism’ in a sense of getting back to basics, from their POV. The Niqaab, the face viel, however is usually disfavored by ‘liberated’ but religious women. Post-war Iraq is going to have to find its own way on these items, and in re womens rights and the like, I would advise letting the Iraqis develop their own idiom on this if one wants to anticipate genuine and sustainable change. Finally in re Afghanistan, Kaboul is not AFghanistan and outside Kaboul and regions in the north where the Burqa was never really traditional, the Burga remains the rule. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/9 "2003-04-10T15:48:22Z")
Heck, I’ve been asking myself that same question for the last 10 years! ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/10 "2003-04-10T15:55:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\*I actually saw a group of women in the same plaza as the statue molesting men. \*\* Now, _those_ are some enlightened women! (OK, I know what you meant, but the first time I read the sentence, I mentally put a comma between “statue” and “molesting.” 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/11 "2003-04-10T17:35:27Z")
What a difference a little puctuation makes. 😉 of course, had I really seen what you (mentally) saw, I’d serious consider Iraq as a vacation option. Most people have this not too positve sterotypical picture of what arab women look like. Some Iraqi women are gorgeous! ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/12 "2003-04-11T02:17:42Z")
Hence, [Burkha Barbie](http://www.islamicgarden.com/article1018.html). ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/13 "2003-04-11T02:30:58Z")
Women get raped when wars end. Looting is not a new idea. It’s pretty much expected for there to be a few days of celebration turned into destruction. Rape is typicallly considered to be a big part of that . We all know it’s unlikely for the Americans to go around raping everyone they see, but it’s likely that these women are remembering a much longer tradition of war and protecting themselves. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/14 "2003-04-11T02:34:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Hence, [Burkha Barbie](http://www.islamicgarden.com/article1018.html). \*\* I thought that was going to be some kind of joke! Reading the article, it actually looks like a good idea, though. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/15 "2003-04-11T15:45:03Z")
Except he wasn’t describing a Burkha. Hijab and Abiya, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/16 "2003-04-12T05:52:31Z")
Actually, during the war in Afghanistan, somebody **did** make a joke picture of a Barbie wearing a burkha. I tried to find it again with a Google search, but the closest thing I came up with was that page, which was serious. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/17 "2003-04-12T05:55:33Z")
The ‘Lil’ Kim’ in a Burqa looks _much_ nicer… ---
**Author:** ![dman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f0a364/32.png) [@dman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dman)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/18 "2003-04-13T00:50:36Z")
Brilliant lack of punctuation there! V. good! That would be this crowd?[Long shot of the crowd pulling down the S.H. statue](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2838.htm) … sorry, it’s a bit tricky to pick out any women. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-free-where-are-the-women/167685/19 "2003-04-13T06:26:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Actually, during the war in Afghanistan, somebody **did** make a joke picture of a Barbie wearing a burkha. I tried to find it again with a Google search, but the closest thing I came up with was that page, which was serious. \*\* At a bazaar they had here last year, someone was selling hand-made national dress outfits for Barbie, of an abaya and hijab. I can’t remember if there was a burqa as part of it.