# Iraq is launching those weapons of mass destruction it doesn't have at our soldiers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798 "2003-03-20T13:29:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/221 "2003-03-24T15:32:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > I’ve said from the get go, (perhaps not here), that Saddam isn’t shit. His military is crippled, has no morale, and will fold like a house of cards. And don’t even mention the _elite_ republican guard to me. I bet the only thing that makes them elite is that they have helmets or something. > > All this Israel and chemical weapons and fire and brimstone shit is vapor. This war will be quick. Quite a sturdy house of cards by all accounts. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/222 "2003-03-24T16:29:20Z")
It will still be quick. The rate at which Coalition forces have sheared through enemy territory is almost utterly unprecedented in the history of warfare. This advance has been lightning fast and cripplingly efficient. Anybody who says we’re _bogging down_ after only a few days and very, very few casualties hasn’t the slightest conception of what they’re talking about. I would love to know the “kill ratio” thus far. I’d be willing to bet that it’s at least 10:1, maybe more like 100:1. As a friend of mine put it, Iraq’s military will fold like a glass-jawed punk, and **nothing** I’ve seen thus far contradicts that analysis. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/223 "2003-03-24T17:20:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*I already noted this Milo, pages ago: it isn’t just the type of missle that’s outlawed, but also the range. However, this is a separate issue from WOMD in any absolute sense. \*\* Some people seem to be having a difficult time realizing that. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/224 "2003-03-24T17:26:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > \*\*It will still be quick. The rate at which Coalition forces have sheared through enemy territory is almost utterly unprecedented in the history of warfare. This advance has been lightning fast and cripplingly efficient. Anybody who says we’re _bogging down_ after only a few days and very, very few casualties hasn’t the slightest conception of what they’re talking about. > > I would love to know the “kill ratio” thus far. I’d be willing to bet that it’s at least 10:1, maybe more like 100:1. > > As a friend of mine put it, Iraq’s military will fold like a glass-jawed punk, and **nothing** I’ve seen thus far contradicts that analysis. \*\* I agree. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/225 "2003-03-24T17:37:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hlujarn \* > \*\*Here you are completely wrong. He can manufacture mortar and missiles as much as he likes, as long as they don’t exceed 150 km range. These aluminium tubes could NOT under ANY circumstances be used to manufacture “nukular” weapons. > > \*\* Well, actually the site given said that the tubes certainly COULD be used for nukes, just that it did not seem to be practical. But the tubes I think, were being imported, not manufactered. SH, under the sanctions, isn’t allowed to buy ANY military crap. So, the fact he is buying aluminum tubes and is very likely converting them to convential weapons is another proof of his lies & deceptions. ---
**Author:** ![stofsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@stofsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stofsky)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/226 "2003-03-24T18:47:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > So, the fact he is buying aluminum tubes and is **very likely** converting them to convential weapons is another **proof** of his lies & deceptions. The bolded parts pretty well cover the administration’s arguments and the anti-war groups’ as well. **very likely != proof**! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/227 "2003-03-24T19:29:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > So, the fact he is buying aluminum tubes and is very likely converting them to convential weapons is another proof of his lies & deceptions. It also proves the, if not clear lies, then at least deceptions of those who were offering those same tubes as _proof_ that he was creating nucular weapons rne therefore represented an imminent threat to US and world safety. That was unnecessary to the point of severe counterproductivity, don’tcha think? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/228 "2003-03-24T20:35:11Z")
[Link.](http://www.datekdj.newsalert.com/bin/djstory?StoryId=CpN6q0aebqLqWmduWmJu) > [@](#): > > No Chemical Weapons Found At Site In Najaf - TV > 03/24/2003 > Dow Jones News Services > > NEW YORK (Dow Jones)–U.S. officials said Monday that no chemical weapons were found at a suspected site at Najaf in central Iraq, U.S. television networks reported. > > NBC News reported from the Pentagon that no chemicals at all were found at the site. CNN, also reporting from the Pentagon, said officials now believe the plant there was abandoned long ago by the Iraqis. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/229 "2003-03-24T20:42:25Z")
> [@](#): > > NEW YORK (Dow Jones)–U.S. officials said Monday that no chemical weapons were found at a suspected site at Najaf in central Iraq, U.S. television networks reported. > > NBC News reported from the Pentagon that no chemicals at all were found at the site. CNN, also reporting from the Pentagon, said officials now believe the plant there was abandoned long ago by the Iraqis. That can’t be right! We planted the chemical weapons there! Tell them to look again! Pay special attention to the _east wall_, approximately 30 paces from the corner with the north wall. Dig down six feet. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/230 "2003-03-24T21:04:05Z")
Silly, you don’t plant them at the FIRST chemical plant you find. You have no sense of drama. I’m glad you’re not over there. You’d have all the “evidence” found in the first few days! Then what would we tell the folks back at home on day fifteen? Day fifteen is the toughest day of ANY war. You’ve GOT to save some news for day fifteen! Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/231 "2003-03-24T21:13:03Z")
You’re right, of course, **Mtgman**. I don’t know what I was thinking. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/232 "2003-03-24T22:07:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > \*\*Silly, you don’t plant them at the FIRST chemical plant you find. You have no sense of drama. I’m glad you’re not over there. You’d have all the “evidence” found in the first few days! Then what would we tell the folks back at home on day fifteen? Day fifteen is the toughest day of ANY war. You’ve GOT to save some news for day fifteen! > > Enjoy, > Steven \*\* 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/233 "2003-03-24T22:17:27Z")
[More on the Najaf site](http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1048313098973). This article also points out that military sites in Nasiriya and al-Khamisiya described by the CIA as part of Iraq’s continuing WMD program are now in coalition-occupied territory, and have so far provided no evidence of banned weapons. From the no-trace-of-irony department: > [@](#): > > Responding to the first report of the Najaf site’s alleged purpose, which appeared in the Jerusalem Post, a senior western intelligence officer said yesterday: “It’s been in the interests of the Israelis to play up a whole range of issues. A degree of healthy scepticism is very necessary.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/234 "2003-03-25T00:41:41Z")
I had no idea that understatement was capable of reaching nuetron density. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/235 "2003-03-25T18:11:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*More chem factory cites at [Jpost](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/PrinterFull&cid=1048389497622) and [Fox](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81935,00.html), but I suppose until the Worker’s Daily or NYT cover it, it isn’t ‘news’ to some. \*\* When directly asked at a press confrence in Qatar today, American Major General Victor Renuart “could not confirm” that the coalition had found any signs of illegal weapons. Apparently he doesn’t trust Fox either, although I’m inclined to disbelieve that he subscribes to Worker’s Daily. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/236 "2003-03-25T18:17:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > **I would love to know the “kill ratio” thus far. I’d be willing to bet that it’s at least 10:1, maybe more like 100:1.** Say, did you ever check the kill ratio in Vietnam ? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/237 "2003-03-25T19:58:31Z")
Ah, the old Vietnam comparison rears its ugly head, and after less than a week! Keep in mind that if the Chinese hadn’t been trucking weapons and men into Vietnam on a 24 hour basis, and if the military had been allowed to establish firm strategic objectives and then implement them, Vietnam would have been a very short war indeed. NOT TO MENTION that back then, the technology difference between the two sides was not nearly as great. I’ll leave the difference between the two conflicts based on those reasons alone as an exercise for the reader. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/238 "2003-03-25T20:07:49Z")
and just what the fuck does that have to do with the kill ratio numbers? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/239 "2003-03-25T20:15:06Z")
And what the hell does kill ratio mean in a war to _liberate and democratize_ a country? How many does **Ogre** think have to be killed to win the friendship of the survivors? One lesson of Vietnam was that a government that thinks in such terms has lost sight of its mission. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798/240 "2003-03-25T20:38:00Z")
**wring** , it matters because [bSpiny Norman\*\* is obviously trying to raise the specter of another Vietnam-style slugfest, which is not, by any account, a reasonable assumption. If he were just trying to say that “kill ratio doesn’t necessarily reflect the realities of war,” I doubt that he’d have brought up the specific example of Vietnam. In any case, to say that the Iraqi operation has bogged down after five days is premature to say the least. In fact, despite “stiff resistance” thus far, Coalition forces are apparently knifing through Iraq like a bone saw through warm liverwurst. > [@](#): > > And what the hell does kill ratio mean in a war to liberate and democratize a country? How many does Ogre think have to be killed to win the friendship of the survivors? [Straw Man](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html): The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. See, you misrepresented my statement. What I said was “Iraq’s military will fold like a glass-jawed punk.” The effort to democratizee the country will no doubt take longer, but the fighting will be over quickly…I predict in a few weeks at most. As for your other question, I don’t know. Let’s ask a few people in Kabul. Care to make another run at what I actually said, or did you just intend to distort and misrepresent? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-launching-those-weapons-of-mass-destruction-it-doesnt-have-at-our-soldiers/162798.md?page=13)