# Iraq is not Vietnam, you say? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 22, 2005, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071 "2005-08-22T03:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/1 "2005-08-22T03:22:23Z")
You – the collective Republican-voting, pro-war, disdain-dripping Bush-supporting you who sneered at any comparison of Iraq to Vietnam, who told us antis over and over again how stupid we were to compare the two; you who dismissed our worries that invading Iraq would destabilize the Mideast rather than bringing a new dawn of freedom, democracy, and peace to the region: [Whatcha say now?](http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/21/hagel.iraq.ap/index.html) > [@](#): > > A leading Republican senator and decorated Vietnam War veteran said Sunday the Iraq war has destabilized the Mideast and is looking more like the Vietnam conflict a generation ago. > > Nebraska Sen. Chuck Hagel, who received two Purple Hearts and other military honors for his service in Vietnam, reiterated his position that the United States needs to develop a strategy to leave Iraq. > > Hagel scoffed at the idea that U.S. troops could be in Iraq four years from now at levels above 100,000, a contingency for which the Pentagon is preparing. > > “We should start figuring out how we get out of there,” Hagel said on “This Week” on ABC. “But with this understanding, we cannot leave a vacuum that further destabilizes the Middle East. I think our involvement there has destabilized the Middle East. And the longer we stay there, I think the further destabilization will occur.” > > Hagel said “stay the course” is not a policy. “By any standard, when you analyze 2 1/2 years in Iraq … we’re not winning,” he said. C’mon, tell us again how wrong we were. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/2 "2005-08-22T03:33:42Z")
Fine. Pat yourselves on the back, high fives all around, because it’s not worked out as planned. That unfortunately happens. Here, have a cookie for your prediction. Now please explain to me how your continued bleating will change the here and now? _Crickets_ Thought so. You may wish to adjust the contrast control of your mental monitor-it appears to be rendering things such you see them in only black and white. Meanwhile, I’ll be out here pondering the gray. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/3 "2005-08-22T03:37:55Z")
Obviously Senator Hagel is being used by Michael Moore and [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) as a shill for their anti-American, leftwing Communist agenda to bring down the United States and its glorious President and replace it with a socialist dystopia in which such things as legitimate criticism of the government and working with other nations through diplomacy are rampant! ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/4 "2005-08-22T03:43:08Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > Now please explain to me how your continued bleating will change the here and now? [What’s good for the goose…](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=284650) 😉 I don’t necessarily like either thread, but I’m feeling pretty quoque tonight. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/5 "2005-08-22T03:43:31Z")
I am trying to comprehend why right wingers can congratulate Israel for pulling out of Gaza and risk to “give the wrong lesson to the terrorists”, and at the same time, say that we should not pull out from Iraq because we will “give the wrong lesson to the terrorists”. Nevermind that Israel had more reasons\* to be in Gaza than the USA in Iraq. \*of course this is controversial, but Israel had IMHO a reason to be there, but I also think they made a mistake by staying as long as it took. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/6 "2005-08-22T04:06:41Z")
IMHO, Israel STILL has a right to be there, and everywhere else. How long were we in Vietnam? IS there really no way to win in Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/7 "2005-08-22T04:21:27Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > . > How long were we in Vietnam? Too bloody long. > [@](#): > > IS there really no way to win in Iraq? At this point? I hate to say it, but my (sick to the) gut feeling is no. Had the invasion been handled differently – the initial level of troops Hagel spoke of, protection of the infrastructure in Baghdad from the looters, etc., etc. – perhaps we’d be in a place now where “win” would at least look possible. Perhaps the “here and now” **dances with cats** speaks of would be less grim. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/8 "2005-08-22T04:33:15Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > Fine. Pat yourselves on the back, high fives all around, because it’s not worked out as planned. There was a **plan**? What was it? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/9 "2005-08-22T04:35:30Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > Fine. Pat yourselves on the back, high fives all around, because it’s not worked out as planned. That unfortunately happens. Here, have a cookie for your prediction. Now please explain to me how your continued bleating will change the here and now? Forgive me if I use you, **danceswithcats** as the hawk everyman for a moment while I give you the explanation you asked for. Our continued bleating will change the here and now by causing an alteration to your behaviour: you, having acknowledged that us lefty peaceniks actually have a degree of analytical and predictive ability in international relations, will listen and take note of our comments and suggestions. You will acknowledge that our comments and suggestions may even on occasion be more correct and useful than your own. You will moderate your pig ignorant testosterone fuelled “big dog” behaviour accordingly. Of course, probably you won’t do that at all. But against that background is the problem our continued bleating or your continued ramming of your fingers in your ears? ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/10 "2005-08-22T04:43:25Z")
Can Bush pull out without losing face? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/11 "2005-08-22T04:51:56Z")
Can Bush stay without losing face? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/12 "2005-08-22T04:53:10Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > Fine. Pat yourselves on the back, high fives all around, because it’s not worked out as planned. That unfortunately happens. Here, have a cookie for your prediction. Now please explain to me how your continued bleating will change the here and now? _Crickets_ Thought so. I love how this mind-set works. If we had been wrong, we would have heard all sorts of i-told-you-so’s from the right. But when we point out that we were, in fact, correct, all we get is criticism for pointing it out. You ask how our “bleating” will change the “here and now.” But, if you remember, there was a time when our misgivings about the future of the war were in the “here and now,” back in 2003. Many critics of the invasion—from leftists to liberals to libertarians and even some conservatives—offered multiple possible alternative courses of action, and warned of the probable long-term consequences of an invasion of Iraq. And, once the offical war part was over, and the Idiot-in-Chief declared “Mission Accomplished,” many of us still warned against such complacency, and asked Bush to contemplate a more active role for the UN, and a more reasonable policy in the region. Back then, our “bleating” was in the “here and now.” And it was ignored and/or ridiculed by conservatives. It takes a pretty large dose of hubris for you to now stand there and say that we shouldn’t worry about the past, but should focus on the “here and now,” because when we follow that advice all we get is abuse or dismissal. > [@danceswithcats](#): > > You may wish to adjust the contrast control of your mental monitor-it appears to be rendering things such you see them in only black and white. > > Meanwhile, I’ll be out here pondering the gray. Well, “gray” certainly sums up the acuity of your thinking on this matter. And it really sounds like all you are pondering is your navel. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/13 "2005-08-22T04:53:24Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > Can Bush pull out without losing face? I can hijack my own thread, can’t I? [hijack] “Would you sleep with Nixon if it would end the war?” “Only if he promised a fast pullout.” Ahhh… yet another blast from the past. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/14 "2005-08-22T04:58:06Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > Can Bush pull out without losing face? Possibly. The Bush Administration [is unashamedly not reality based.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6491270&postcount=91). They may be able to just announce that the US has won and that Iraq is now stable, and leave. They’ve pulled off more or less comparable acts of spin before without faltering. Personally, I think that reality can only be stretched so far before it snaps back on you hard, and Bush may have stretched it a bit far. But I’m not sure about that either. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/15 "2005-08-22T04:59:48Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > There was a **plan**? What was it? [ul][li]Step 1: Invade Iraq.[/li][li]Step 2: Get rid of Saddam Hussein.[/li][li]Step 3: Accept adulation from Iraqi people and return home conquering heroes.[/ul][/li](I can envision a political cartoon with an elf-earef Duhbya in front of an easel, pointing a stick at the list.) ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/16 "2005-08-22T05:00:59Z")
[ETF’s hijack] You’ve heard that Nixon saw Deep throat 12 times? He wanted to be sure he got it down Pat. [/ETF’s hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/17 "2005-08-22T05:03:29Z")
That should have been 'elf-\*eared[‘i]’. Ah, you know the style. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/18 "2005-08-22T05:05:13Z")
She was only a banker’s daughter, but there was a substantial penalty for early withdrawal. ---
**Author:** ![lexi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lexi/32/6806_2.png) [@lexi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lexi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/19 "2005-08-22T05:07:02Z")
EddyTeddyFreddy - I agree with you, completely - but unfortunately no matter how rational and clear thinking all of us who weren’t brainwashed into thinking WMDs existed and that invading Iraq would bring peace to the middle east - the right will never accept that the left was correct. We could say “I told you so” until we were blue in the face, but they do not wish to listen - many of them are a brick wall of ignorance - and we should be happy some are FINALLY seeing the light. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071/20 "2005-08-22T05:11:01Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > There was a **plan**? What was it? It’s a piece of paper with directions on it, but that’s not important right now. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-not-vietnam-you-say/318071.md?page=2)