# Iraq is starting to look a lot like . . . Yugoslavia **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-starting-to-look-a-lot-like-yugoslavia/318480 "2005-08-24T20:10:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-starting-to-look-a-lot-like-yugoslavia/318480/21 "2005-08-27T04:39:57Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > (Note also what partition did to _Ireland_. It arguably caused _more_ bloodshed than outright occupation until an independent democracy of all factions living together might have caused.) Partition was one of the things that led to the Civil War in Ireland(Eire, if you like) 1922-1923, although the actual thing that started the CW was a argument over a proposed Oath to the King, Ireland was not a Republic yet. If the British hadn’t devolved power to a bigoted intolerant shower of Unionist cunts who for 50 years kept a big boot on the neck of the Nationalist/Catholic minority who knows how it would have turned out. Ghettoised and impoverished the Nationalist anger grew. Initially the main avenue taken was a Civil Rights movement based on the American MLK model of non-violent resistance. The NI police beat them down openly and attacked their communities. The anger and frustration at very real injustices by the state gave new life to a near extinct IRA. The rest in history. The US/UK have way more logistical and cultural nightmares in Iraq than the UK ever faced in NI. They also now face a freshly angered minority who are willing to take the fight to the Allies doorstep. Iraq is held up by the extremists as confirmation of the evil of the west. These bastards don’t any real definable goals other than to destroy western culture. Petrol has been poured on an already large and dangerous fire. I honestly don’t see how it can be put out now ☹ ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-starting-to-look-a-lot-like-yugoslavia/318480/22 "2005-08-27T04:45:02Z")
> [@RetroVertigo](#): > > I believe it can be saved in present form. the thing to remember that in the end all three groups are muslim. Yugoslavia was two different religions, and many cultures. Well, it depends on how you’re counting religions. You really had three: Eastern Orthodox (mainly Serbia), Roman Catholic (mainly Croatia & Slovenia), and Islam (mainly Bosnia). From my experience, Slav Muslims were quite different than Middle Eastern Muslims, in that they drank alcohol, did not (for the most part) don conservative Muslim clothing, etc. They were fairly European. I would say that there was more tension between the Catholics and Orthodox (mainly because of bad blood stemming from WWII and Croatian atrocities) than between the Muslims and the Christian religions (although those tensions were pretty evident in the 90s and still are today in places like Mostar.) The more I think about the OP, the more I can see some parallels. I just get the sense that there’s a more tangible ethnic division in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![RetroVertigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@RetroVertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RetroVertigo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-starting-to-look-a-lot-like-yugoslavia/318480/23 "2005-08-27T06:09:57Z")
I was counting Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic as both christian. But i see what you mean. the city im from has a significant Serbian and Bosnian immigrant community. I have meet quite a few muslims, and agree that they’re more liberal (for lack of a better word, i’ll use a term as if i were talking about a christian church) then their Arab counter-parts. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-starting-to-look-a-lot-like-yugoslavia/318480/24 "2005-08-27T07:09:03Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I cannot answer that question with any sort of authority. All I can tell you that, as far as Yugoslavia is concerned, the separate ethnic groups were pretty well inter-married and living fairly harmoniously with each other up into the very early 90s. > > I have never been to Iraq and have very little knowledge about the ethnic hatreds there. I do get the impression that they are more deeply-seeded and go back farther back in history than Yugoslavia’s. But I defer to anyone who has an insight into that culture. Well, I don’t. But, WRT the OP, you seemed to be saying that the Iraq situation is not like Yugoslavia in the '90s, it’s **worse** – because the ethnic/religious conflicts in Iraq are not merely artificial, therefore could not be quieted by assassinating a few very loud public figures. Is that what you meant? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-starting-to-look-a-lot-like-yugoslavia/318480/25 "2005-08-27T07:10:38Z")
> [@RetroVertigo](#): > > I was counting Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic as both christian. But i see what you mean. Of course, you know very well that neither Catholics nor Orthodoxers are really Christians. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-starting-to-look-a-lot-like-yugoslavia/318480/26 "2005-08-27T13:45:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, I don’t. But, WRT the OP, you seemed to be saying that the Iraq situation is not like Yugoslavia in the '90s, it’s **worse** – because the ethnic/religious conflicts in Iraq are not merely artificial, therefore could not be quieted by assassinating a few very loud public figures. Is that what you meant? Well, I get the feeling that the tension between Iraqis and Kurds is more deeply engrained, and assasinating a few public figures wouldn’t do any bit of good. To me, the only comparable group in Yugoslavia to the Kurds were the Albanians. I wouldn’t say any of the other groups had status as second-class citizens. But, once again, I don’t know. I’m working on the media portrayal of Iraqis and Kurds to come to this conclusion. I’ve always gotten the sense that no one wants the Kurds. The Turks don’t want 'em, the Iraqis don’t want 'em. And they make up about 20-25% of Iraq. I feel this is a more pervasive and historical cultural/ethnic prejudice than in Yugoslavia. But that’s just the sense I get. I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-starting-to-look-a-lot-like-yugoslavia/318480/27 "2005-08-27T22:44:15Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I would say it was Milosevic and Tudjman who dug up these supposed “old ethnic hatreds,” and exacerbated them in their own plots for power. It’s not like Croats and Serbs and Bosnians had a deep-seeded hatred of each other before the war. Yet it was pretty easy to stir them up among a pretty large percentage of the populace. Doesn’t that at least mean that mutual tolerance was a fairly thin skin over a fairly deep pool of latent resentments? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-starting-to-look-a-lot-like-yugoslavia/318480/28 "2005-08-31T04:32:40Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’m working on the media portrayal of Iraqis and Kurds to come to this conclusion. I’ve always gotten the sense that no one wants the Kurds. The Turks don’t want 'em, the Iraqis don’t want 'em. Actually, the problem is that the Turks (and the Iraqis, and the Iranians, and the Syrians) **do** want the Kurds\* – they just don’t want them to be Kurds. Turkey’s policy used to be to refer to the Kurds as “Mountain Turks” and ban any public usage of the Kurdish language, in hopes they would eventually forget their national identity and assimilate to Turkish culture. No doubt many have, but most didn’t. For more complete discussion, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds). \*Or rather, they want to hold on to their own pieces of “Kurdistan,” and short of “ethnic cleansing,” to keep the territory they have to keep the people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-is-starting-to-look-a-lot-like-yugoslavia/318480.md?page=1)