# Iraq: Losing the War on Terror **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-losing-the-war-on-terror/182211 "2003-06-16T13:48:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-losing-the-war-on-terror/182211/21 "2003-06-16T23:27:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > Counter-terror wise, we got off on the wrong foot immediately. The best possible approach would involve the international cooperation of security apparatus and plain old police work. Naturally, to accomplish this would require close cooperation and even closer sharing of intelligence. In a word: trust. Are you talking about Afghanistan? What key nations were against this action? > [@](#): > > For a while there, we had the sympathy of the entire world. Hell, even people who don’t even like us very much were having candlelight vigils, everybody was on our side for maybe the first and last time in our history! And GeeDubya pissed it all away being a tough guy. The enormity of this stupidity is simply stunning. > > We wanted to Do Something. Something stern, something powerful. As the old saying goes, when you are a hammer, all problems look like nails. When massive military superiority is your strong suit, well, guess what. You go to war. Which is, finally, about as effective as launching an artillery barrage against an incoming fog. Loud, aggressive, impressive, dramatic…and futile. > > In the process of pursuing the Sisyphean strategy, we alienated the very people who were standing shoulder to shoulder with us, eager to be of help. We have enraged our potential enemies, and neutralized our potential allies. It is the geopolitics of an enraged, and rather dull-witted, child: lashing out for the sake of emotional catharsis rather than calm, reasoned, and, yes, ploddingly relentless pursuit. Our leaders crave to be seen as Men of Action, they thrust thier chins defiantly, pound the table, and beat thier presumably hairy chests. > > A more profoundly short sighted and counterproductive policy is difficult to imagine. Here, I assume you are talking about Iraq. While I might agree with you on this, and it might even be true, it’s not clear to me that there is any evidence that it **is** true. Here I’m somewhat reading into your post that you are saying key countries will cooperate with us less in the future on fighting terrorism because of the invasion of Iraq. I think it is equally plausible that countries will continue to cooperate with us because they are targets of terrorism, too. Anyway, if you have any actual evidence, I’d be interested in seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-losing-the-war-on-terror/182211/22 "2003-06-16T23:39:53Z")
> [@](#): > > While I might agree with you on this, and it might even be true, it’s not clear to me that there is any evidence that it is true. Well, gee, I’m not quite sure how I might demonstrate any loss of international sympathy and cooperation. Something on the order of millions of outraged persons marching in the capitols of the world to protest our policy? Something like that, perhaps? Contrast and compare with pictures of Germans holding candlelight vigils wearing shirts that say _Ich bin ein Amerikkaner_. I suggest that my case stands “on the face of it” (or _primae faciae_, to wax insufferable). To disagree, you need to offer evidence that it is not true. We needed Columbo. We called in General Patton. Stupid. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-losing-the-war-on-terror/182211/23 "2003-06-16T23:48:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > Well, gee, I’m not quite sure how I might demonstrate any loss of international sympathy and cooperation. Something on the order of millions of outraged persons marching in the capitols of the world to protest our policy? Something like that, perhaps? > > Contrast and compare with pictures of Germans holding candlelight vigils wearing shirts that say _Ich bin ein Amerikkaner_. > > I suggest that my case stands “on the face of it” (or _primae faciae_, to wax insufferable). To disagree, you need to offer evidence that it is not true. Well, that’s convenient. Like I said, I can see where it might be true, but it’s unclear that it is. Personally, though, I never bought the idea that Iraq was in league with al Qaeda. I’d be more concerened about perception in the Arab world than whether or not our traditional allies might cooperate with us less. As for the folks who hated us feeling sympathy after 9/11, I got the opposite sense. Palestinians dancing in the street isn’t what I call sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Weman\_cdw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@David\_Weman\_cdw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Weman_cdw)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-losing-the-war-on-terror/182211/24 "2003-06-17T00:52:38Z")
I don’t think France or whatever have decided ‘screw cooperation, we don’t like you anymore’. But: If, say, there’s inter-agency conflicts in the administration, they ight carry out even the tasks they agree upon less effectively. The same is true of allied countries with strained relations; people could have a hard time cooperating even though they try in earnest. Possibly. Or very possibly not. I have no idea if it’s in fact true. I don’t think I’ve read anything about it, it’s pure speculation on my part. Actually, I haven’t read anything about intelligence work or counterterrorism in a good while, despite being a news junkie. Which is odd. After sep 11 there were such articles, like New Yorker writing about German intelligence work. Odd. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-losing-the-war-on-terror/182211/25 "2003-06-18T13:16:14Z")
Today, once again, like every day, there is news of violence in Iraq. I am not even going to get into who might be wrong or right but one think is for sure: this is not the way to win hearts. > [@](#): > > [Three dead in Baghdad violence](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2999594.stm) > > The Iraqi soldiers were demanding unpaid wages > Growing tension between Iraqis and occupying US troops in Baghdad has flared into violence, leaving two protesters and one US soldier dead. The US military says a soldier opened fire after demonstrators started throwing stones at a military convoy outside the former presidential compound which now houses the US-led military coalition running Iraq. > > In a separate incident, a US soldier was killed and another wounded in a drive-by shooting at a petrol station in the city. A US Army spokesmen said the gunmen escaped as other soldiers tried to help the wounded. > [@](#): > > [Iraq ‘too dangerous to rebuild’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2999368.stm) > > British and American troops have to get a grip on Baghdad because lawlessness is hampering attempts to rebuild Iraq, the UK’s international development secretary has warned. Baroness Amos is so concerned about the dangerous security situation in the Iraqi capital she has postponed a trip there. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-losing-the-war-on-terror/182211/26 "2003-06-18T14:31:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Since the war, Israel and the Palestinians have embarked on new negotiations, [the Egyptian intelligence chief urged terrorist groups to cooperate with Palestinian Authority officials](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62803-2003Jun15.html?nav=hptop_tb), there have been significant demonstations against Iran’s terrorism-supporting mullahs, and we haven’t seen major new terrorst attacks. So, on the evidence to date, the war with Iraq seems to have done more to quell terrorism than to exacebate it. Your world view profoundly differs from mine. Since the distraction of Iraq has passed, Bush finally became willing to give some attention to a “road map” which had been lying on the table for a year. He managed to get Sharon speaking to a new government in Abbas that the US and Israel were instrumental in putting in place. I don’t think Iraq had anything to do with it – I think it was the willingness of the US to finally go in there and make the two sides speak. About not having seen terrorist attacks. Well, as you like to point out in all of the WMD debates, it has only been 2 months. But in that time, we have seen two large terror attacks (in Morocco and Riyadh) sponsored by al Qaeda, who supposedly is no longer a threat to us. Yet they managed to kill 30 or so at foreign and Jewish interests in Morocco and 90 or so at a complex for foreigners in Riyadh. Also, we have seen popular support for Hamas attacks in Israel throughout the territories, which in most ways the PA is absolutely powerless to stop. So yeah, there haven’t been any major terrorist attacks in the US, but there have been significant ones at US interests. ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-losing-the-war-on-terror/182211/27 "2003-06-18T15:06:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Sure. consider two questions: > > 1. Did the war with Iraq aid or hamper the war on terror? > 2. Is Homeland Security Dept. doing a good job? > > Regarding #1, the arguments on both sides are still pretty speculative. Since the war, Israel and the Palestinians have embarked on new negotiations, [the Egyptian intelligence chief urged terrorist groups to cooperate with Palestinian Authority officials](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62803-2003Jun15.html?nav=hptop_tb), there have been significant demonstations against Iran’s terrorism-supporting mullahs, and we haven’t seen major new terrorst attacks. So, on the evidence to date, the war with Iraq seems to have done more to quell terrorism than to exacebate it. > > Regarding #2, I don’t agree at all with Beers that they should be giving more grants to localities. Such grant money is often spent wastefully. > > The Homeland Security effort is far from perfect IMHO. It’s easy to find example of foolish actions by Homeland Security Dept., particularly in the impact of some of their bureaucratic regulations. OTOH Stephen Brill (who is a Democrat) praised Tom Ridge’s performance in his new book, _After : How America Confronted the September 12 Era_ \*\* I’m not claiming that the war in Iraq has been unsuccessful, not even as a part of the war on terror, but: "Since the war, Israel and the Palestinians have embarked on new negotiations, " … kicked off by Pres. Bush something which he could and should have done earlier. “the Egyptian intelligence chief urged terrorist groups to cooperate with Palestinian Authority officials” … something which they do and have done frequently for several years now “there have been significant demonstations against Iran’s terrorism-supporting mullahs” … nothing new here, the young people of Iran, dubbed the Third Force, have been involved in demonstrations on several occasions the last year, for instance on November 11, 2002. “and we haven’t seen major new terrorst attacks” … huh, and what will you call the recent bombings in Saudi-Arabia and that other country? “So, on the evidence to date, the war with Iraq seems to have done more to quell terrorism than to exacebate it.” I believe this can only be determined in a longterm aspect. So far I would say nothing has changed. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-losing-the-war-on-terror/182211/28 "2003-06-18T16:13:05Z")
“Losing the war on Terror” seems to imply that such a war can actually be won. Can it? Under what conditions can you declare victory? How many deaths have to take place for a victory to turn back to defeat? I’m not particularly well-versed in the ins and outs of international diplomacy or Middle Eastern politics, but it seems to my uneducated mind that as long as there is actual or perceived injustices being inflicted, someone, somewhere is going to be willing to strap explosives to themselves and say “I’m mad as hell, I’m not going to take it anymore, and, oh, by the way, you’re coming with me. And guess what…you haven’t won the war on terrorism.” I was watching Fantasia the other night with my daughter, and the Sorcerer’s Apprentice segment came on. I was struck by the similarities I see between Mickey Mouse’s attack on the runaway broom and our own efforts at “winning the war on terrorism” Mickey took an axe to the broom and chopped it into smaller and smaller pieces, thereby thinking he had solved his problem. In reality, he just created that many more pieces that could continue the original destruction. While that may seem like a simplistic view to take of the problem, I don’t believe it is anymore simplistic than the “us vs. them,” “you’re with us or against us,” “axis of evil” rhetoric used by the Administration. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-losing-the-war-on-terror/182211/29 "2003-06-18T19:43:22Z")
I can only hope that the US government’s War on Terror is at least as successful as its War on Drugs. We won that one, didn’t we? ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-losing-the-war-on-terror/182211/30 "2003-06-18T19:55:37Z")
I dunno. Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. I personally agree with Beers. All the guns and bombs in the world aren’t going to change a freakin’ thing over there. Hell, in Afghanistan, they’ve been hiding in the deserts and gleefully murdering each other since Genghis Khan, for potato’s sake, and they aren’t going to stop now short of saturation nuclear bombing… a move which I feel fairly secure that we won’t do. By the same token, there are solid, rational REASONS that the Arab peninsula and the Muslim world feels the way it does… and charging around waving flags and invading people may beat them into submission, briefly, it AIN’T gonna fix the problem, and may well make it worse in the long run. Unfortunately… explaining and understanding these reasons, these problems, these issues… man… howthehell’z a president supposed to get re-elected THAT way? You’ll notice that Bush didn’t ride a jet out to land on the deck of a public library or think tank. Nope. No guts, no glory. Better to go nuke the living dogpoop out of someone and then party on the rubble, screaming “We’re Number One!” while someone videotapes it for the campaign commercial, yes? At least… if all you REALLY care about is staying in charge, as opposed to getting anything FIXED over there… ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-losing-the-war-on-terror/182211/31 "2003-06-19T01:22:32Z")
**Coll** , my friend, forgive me if this is a bit of a thread wander, but I offer my observations now in the context of trying to explain Mr Beer’s wonderment and exasperation at US Executive Policy. Firtly, last time I checked, I’ve never once heard Osama bin Laden, or a fundamentalist in Pakistan or Indonesia, or a Hamas spokesperson, or an Iraqi, or an Iranian, or anyone anywhere speak out with embittered resentful calls for a Holy War against say, Norway, or Switzerland. I personally think there’s a truly important message involved in that. Even though Great Britain and Australia were (and are) allies of the USA in the Iraqi conflict, those two countries still escape most of the daily vitriol. But perception is everything. Norway and Switzerland never register on al Quaeda’s radar - like ever - and yet, they’re just as Western and as Christian as the USA. So what’s the difference? Well, in my considered opinion, the difference is that there is a perception (rightly or wrongly) that the USA (and her commercial institutions) is an overbearing, exploitative, meddlesome, unfair, double-standards ridden behemoth who deserves to be brought down a rung or two, thank you very much. Now, before I go any further, bear in mind that perception is not reality - even though many would argue that it is. Is the USA as bad as common perception in the rest of the world would have us believe? Obviously not… the people of the USA are a lovely, warm, articulate people. Was Iran over the top in 1979 when they started decrying the USA as the Great Satan? Obviously… and yet… the perception remains. What this says to me is that the truth is actually about 50/50… namely, that yes, the USA can be a dreadfully meddlesome pain in the arse with little, or no foresight - but equally true is that many people who blame the USA for ALL of their problems in life do so because they are unwilling to accept responsibility for many of the inherent problems within their own cultural context. Nonetheless, even though perception might not be reality - certainly the outcomes are. The bombs, the killings, the kidnappings, the violence etc etc etc. It’s been decades and decades in the making… and just like when we decide that it’s time for us to lose weight, the solution is hardly an overnight thing. It takes months and months of dedication to even IMPLEMENT the beginnings of a turnaround. One of the inherent problems the USA has is that it has chosen to be locked into 4 year election turnarounds, with capped two term presidencies. The amount of time needed to truly implement a turnaround in global perception of the USA is so long that the need to be re-elected takes precedence - and as such, the genuine long term changes which are needed seem to me be constantly on the back foot. In short, the USA has to work out a way to be lower profile. It has to break free of the perception that (rightly or wrongly) she deserves what she gets. She has to earn the right once again to be seen to be a non-agressive non-combatant who doesn’t DESERVE hostile actions towards her. The **War on Terror** , like so many aspects of a locked in 4 year electoral term, is a function of not being able to see the forest for the trees. As a loyal friend and ally of my American buddies on this board, please accept these insights with magnanimity. I honestly want to see the USA become a quiet peaceful place once again - and I want to see it in my lifetime. I want to see the USA have the same global radar signature as Norway. It’s in your interests guys. It’s why I drive a Lexus. It’s a luxury car, sure, but no one ever stops consider to “coining it” in a carpark. It just doesn’t register on the radar. But the BMW’s and Merc’s of this world? There’s NO WAY I’d ever leave one parked in public. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-losing-the-war-on-terror/182211/32 "2003-06-19T04:00:39Z")
Despite Collounsbury’s concern that the [Kerry campaign](http://www.johnkerry.com/site/PageServer) isn’t the issue here, I would suggest that Mr. Beers’ comments and consultation have more than a little to do with today’s news story: [Kerry: Bush Misled Americans on War](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030619/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_iraq_5). ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-losing-the-war-on-terror/182211/33 "2003-06-19T17:58:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > \*\ ***Coll** , my friend, forgive me if this is a bit of a thread wander, but I offer my observations now in the context of trying to explain Mr Beer’s wonderment and exasperation at US Executive Policy. > > Firtly, last time I checked, I’ve never once heard Osama bin Laden, or a fundamentalist in Pakistan or Indonesia, or a Hamas spokesperson, or an Iraqi, or an Iranian, or anyone anywhere speak out with embittered resentful calls for a Holy War against say, Norway…\*\* Funny you should mention [Norway](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3050677.stm).😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-losing-the-war-on-terror/182211.md?page=1)