# Iraq: more soldiers got killed, what's the next move? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294 "2004-04-05T03:05:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/41 "2004-04-06T02:50:11Z")
As I write, I am listening to reports of an impending military incursion into Fallujah to show the evildoers that we mean business, that we are tough honchos and not to be messed with. This, of course, after we close down thier newspaper and arrest thier leader. I sincerely hope we get away with this, though we have no right to expect to. Because if this little excercise in mechanized armor machismo goes south, it will blow up in our faces like a Christmas present from the Unabomber. How do you arrest a mob? A mob that has already dispersed. A mob that, by all appearances, was not interfered with by the general population, nor by our hastily cobbled up police forces. What, pray, can the Marines hope to accomplish? The risk is enormous, the payoff transitory and probably illusory. Once again, it is shown: those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to make the rest of us repeat it. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/42 "2004-04-06T02:57:17Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > When are our leaders going to learn to take renewable energy seriously so we don’t have to be dependant on the capricious whims of a land ruled by despots and fanatics? What do you suppose we’d’ve gotten for our $200billion if we’d divied it up into $100million grants to 2000 US universities to engage in alternative energy reearches? [Invasion of Iraq vs Alternative Energy Research](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=215365) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/43 "2004-04-06T22:45:04Z")
Fighting is getting much worse and Brmmer just continues to spout his rhetoric about how well everything is going. This is just surreal. > [@](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/06/iraq.main/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/06/iraq.main/index.html) > > Eleven U.S. soldiers and two coalition troops have been killed in battles with al-Sadr’s followers since Saturday. Other attacks in northern Iraq killed two other American soldiers over the weekend, and seven Marines have been killed in western Iraq since then. > . . . . . . > U.S. and coalition troops are battling supporters of Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr for a third day Tuesday, with clashes reported in Baghdad and at least four cities in the country’s south. > > Heavy fighting was reported in the Sunni Triangle city of Fallujah, where U.S. Marines and Iraqi security forces were reasserting control after the killing and mutilation of four civilian security guards last week. > > And west of Fallujah late Tuesday, insurgents mounted a large-scale attack against Marines in Ramadi, killing “under a dozen” Americans, officials in Washington said. > > In the holy city of Najaf in southern Iraq, al-Sadr’s militia was in control of government, police and spiritual sites, a coalition source said. > > U.S. Marines moved into Fallujah from several directions, – coming under heavy fire from insurgents – in a second day of Operation Vigilant Resolve. > > Hospital officials in Fallujah reported at least 10 Iraqis dead and 24 injured, a source inside the city told CNN. > > Abrams tanks and infantry fighting vehicles led the Marine columns across a railway line north of the city into urban areas, where they were fired on by assault rifles and rocket-propelled grenades. > > The tanks and mounted grenade launchers picked off rooftop snipers, destroying at least three houses in the process. > . . . . . > In Baghdad, firefights continued Tuesday, particularly in the Shiite area of Sadr City. Reports also indicated that Italian troops were battling al-Sadr supporters in Nasiriyah. > > Fighting broke out between coalition forces and Sadr’s Mehdi Army on Saturday, after the arrest of al-Sadr’s deputy on charges in connection with Abdul Majeed al-Khoei’s death April 10, 2003, outside the Imam Ali shrine in Najaf. And yet Bagdhag Bob Bremmer > [@](#): > > Despite the widespread unrest, the top U.S. civilian administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, said there is “no question” that coalition forces are in control of the country. > > “I know if you just report on those few places, it does look chaotic,” Bremer said. > > “But if you travel around the country … what you find is a bustling economy, people opening businesses right and left, unemployment has dropped.” Surreal. ---
**Author:** ![verybdog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/49beb7/32.png) [@verybdog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/verybdog)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/44 "2004-04-07T02:21:28Z")
It’s reported that 12 more soldiers were killed tonight. Do you guys think Iraqis are still afraid of Saddam? If they are, maybe we should let Saddam go back to rule them. Blix said Iraq is worse today than when Saddam was in power. I think so. Iraq is a country that was under control then, but not today. It certainly is worse than before. Heard from NPR tonight - Bush said “we love freedom, they (terrorists) hate freedom…that’s where the clash is” or to that effect. Is the world really that simple? Can we force people to love freedom??? My answer is No. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/45 "2004-04-07T02:30:16Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > It still boggles the mind that Bush did not realize this would happen because it had been widely predicted. We haven’t yet reached the depths of GW’s insularity, nevertheless it continues to be surprising even to someone like me who has always seen him as an inept bungler. ---
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/46 "2004-04-07T04:26:25Z")
> [@verybdog](#): > > Heard from NPR tonight - Bush said “we love freedom, they (terrorists) hate freedom…that’s where the clash is” or to that effect. > > Is the world really that simple? Can we force people to love freedom??? > > My answer is No. In George Soros’s book, _The Bubble of American Supremacy_, it is suggested that we substitute “the United States” for “freedom” whenever we hear Dubya talking. I must say, this seems to fit every time. I mean, are we expected to believe anybody anywhere would really hate freedom? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/47 "2004-04-07T04:53:34Z")
> [@buns3000](#): > > In George Soros’s book, _The Bubble of American Supremacy_, it is suggested that we substitute “the United States” for “freedom” whenever we hear Dubya talking. I must say, this seems to fit every time. I mean, are we expected to believe anybody anywhere would really hate freedom? Oh, I get it now. freedom = the United States terrorists = Communists Ah, just like being in 1956 again. Any other words we should exchange to understand what the hell those Cold Warrior neocons are babbling about? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/48 "2004-04-07T05:02:25Z")
What the hell? > **[The Latest News from the UK and Around the World | Sky News](https://news.sky.com/)** > > Sky News delivers breaking news, headlines and top stories from business, politics, entertainment and more in the UK and worldwide. I think somebody added an extra zero on here… ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/49 "2004-04-07T05:20:20Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > What the hell? > [http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1130577,00.html](http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1130577,00.html) > > I think somebody added an extra zero on here… I certainly hope so… The front page of that news source says: > [@](#): > > As many as 12 US marines have been killed in fierce fighting in Iraq between Coalition forces and what is thought to have been Saddam Hussein loyalists. Still, a very bloody day for everyone involved. I feel safer. :-p ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/50 "2004-04-07T07:05:45Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > We haven’t yet reached the depths of GW’s insularity, nevertheless it continues to be surprising even to someone like me who has always seen him as an inept bungler. and then…and then… and THEN, the dumb little momzer tells us: 1. If I had a known they were gonna use planes as missiles, I would’a been there buddy 2. I never read the newspaper. Well, then, how the fuck were you going to know anything, you smug son of a bitch? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/51 "2004-04-07T07:56:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Its the Shia that have me confused. Thier behavior really makes little sense: they’ve won, all they have to do is run out the clock. No matter how the parliamentary system is stuctured, with thier solid majority they can rewrite the laws as they choose as soon as the Americans are gone, if not before. The prize will fall into thier laps simply by an excercise of benign inertia. > > So why? They were the reliable ones, the ones we could count on. Over and over we here told how its just those malcontent Sunnis, pissed about thier perks being revoked, the vast majority of Iraqis are simply bubbling with good mojo for the Americans. But now the Shia are acting up, and it would seem there is no good reason for them to do so, why rebel against an authority that is seemingly intent on handing everything to you? There is no **“THE Shi’a”** in Iraq. Just as there are no **“THE Sunni”** and no **“THE Kurds”**. It’s all about factions, factions, factions and this is almost certainly as much about internal Shi’a politics as it is anything else. Muqtada al-Sadr was _never_ a friend to the U.S., wasn’t the biggest dog in the world of Shi’a politics, and was apparently losing ground and looking to get shut out of any real say in power. Sistani and his supporters, Jaaferi and the “moderate” wing(s) of al-Daawa, and SCIRI under al-Hakim in particular all have differences with him and in some ways are/were better positioned, as they have in fact been playing ball ( carefully ) with the U.S… It is somewhat in THEIR interests to hold elections, it isn’t necessarily in al-Sadr’s. The threat really is less Muqtada al-Sadr ( though he and his followers are a problem ). It is the inevitable radicalization of the populace in response to the ( necessary ) crackdown. With luck this will be an isolated spot of nastiness with only _some_ longterm consequences. But it might be much worse. We’ll just have to wait and see. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/52 "2004-04-07T13:08:57Z")
Bckground on ‘the Shia’: [Analysis: Growing Shia discontent](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3602151.stm): \*And yet, for a coalition which already has enemies enough in Iraq, a new front is opening up, with helicopter gunships over the Shia slums of Baghdad, and automatic fire in the holy city of Najaf, a place which had been calm for almost the whole of the past 12 months. What has gone wrong? Well, the first and most important thing to stress is that this is not a general Shia uprising. \* \ \*The crucial task now facing the coalition is to stop the anger among this small group of radicals from turning into more general discontent. That is a possibility, if, come 1 July and the handover of sovereignty to a new Iraqi government, the Shia feel somehow cheated of power. It might also happen if the Shia believe that British and US forces are going to stay on indefinitely - that Iraqi self-rule is a sham. I spoke to three masked members of a Shia militia in Basra last summer. As they cradled rocket-propelled grenades in their arms, they said they were grateful to British soldiers for liberating their country, but if the British did not leave soon, they would start killing them\* [Who are Iraq’s Mehdi Army?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3604393.stm): \*Taking its name from Mehdi - the “promised one” in Islam - the militia is fiercely loyal to its religious founder. “I’m not sure what the aim of the army is or when we will fight, but I will follow Sadr’s orders,” was how one original volunteer, 29-year-old Kathem Rissan, explained his position to the Financial Times in Baghdad last July. Access to guns The MA’s potential as an armed force was only really felt when violence erupted with coalition forces this week, although many of the gunmen in action on the streets of Baghdad or Najaf may not necessarily have been militia members but ordinary Iraqis defending their neighbourhoods. \* And I suspect we have different media expectations about the forthcoming elections ? [30 June Iraq handover questioned](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3602151.stm): "However, the reality behind the plan is more complex. [ul] [li]security after 30 June will remain in the hands of a four-star American general who will command all military forces, foreign and Iraqi. [/li] [li]the format of the interim government is far from agreed. There is likely to be a prime minister under a revolving three-person presidency. The prime minister will have to have the approval of the United States. [/li] [li]the interim government will administer but it will not rule. It will have very little power. Many of its ministers will probably be the same as those now running the Iraqi Governing Council. [/li] financial decisions will largely remain with the US since $8bn of reconstruction aid will be flowing in. The new US embassy will be the power in the land. [/ul]" ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/53 "2004-04-07T14:19:15Z")
Anyone want to start betting on when the Pentagon will start citing “body counts” as proof things are going well? Apaprently, President Bush felt so guilty about missing the first Vietnam, he’s decided to start another one. Well, thank God they found all those WMDs, huh? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/54 "2004-04-07T14:27:12Z")
What to do next? How about bombing a mosque, that should really help isolate the fish from the sea. [US airstrike hits mosque](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3608315.stm) I do so hope this isn’t true because I can’t help but feel that the blow-back will wipe out whatever tactical, on-the-ground advantage it might have temporarily gained, assuming it was hit because troops were taking fire and it wasn’t a SNAFU type thing. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/55 "2004-04-07T14:33:03Z")
Sometimes you have to destroy a Mosque to save it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/56 "2004-04-07T14:34:36Z")
I hate it when my questions get answered this quickly. From the Globe and Mail: > [@](#): > > Major-General James Mattis, marine commander in Anbar province, of which Ramadi is the capital, confirmed Wednesday that 12 marines had been killed in two battles in the city that raged for three hours Tuesday. > > He said one of the fights spread along a front stretching for 1½ kilometres. He would not speculate on how many insurgents were killed but said "the enemy paid a price. … **we have the bodies."** Emphasis mine. Yup, body count’s up, so they must be winning. A few dozen down, 20,000,000 to go. The U.S. also managed to kill a few dozen women and children: > [@](#): > > Among the 60 dead in the city reported earlier, 26 people — including 16 children and up to eight women — were killed when warplanes struck four houses late Tuesday, said Hatem Samir at Fallujah Hospital. Winning the hearts and minds, doncha know. By grabbing them by the balls. Or blowing their kids’ heads off, either way. Isn’t this going well? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/57 "2004-04-07T14:58:06Z")
I’m all for equality of the sexes. [Why is killing a dozen civilian women any worse than killing a dozen civilian men](http://www.iraqbodycount.net/)? In fact, a woman has little means to survive on her own in many countries, so killing the man could make her life, and that of her children, a living hell. How many civilians are we up to now? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/58 "2004-04-07T16:06:04Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > How many civilians are we up to now? Well, in the game of trotting out old saws, GW and his cabal can always say, “If you want to make an omelet you have to break some eggs.” ---
**Author:** ![legion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/838e76/32.png) [@legion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legion)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/59 "2004-04-07T16:15:43Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > …How many civilians are we up to now? Up to 40 more can be added to the total after [this air strike](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3608315.stm) against a Mosque in Falluja a couple of hours ago. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-more-soldiers-got-killed-whats-the-next-move/238294/60 "2004-04-07T16:19:21Z")
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