# (Iraq-Related) Am I the only one... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2005, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406 "2005-08-03T11:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/241 "2005-08-05T05:58:17Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You are either a liar or someone who has the same grasp of the English language as rwjefferson (or possibly both). > > You clearly said “mercenary bodyguards.” It would behoove you, if you truly want people to understand you, to inform your audience what your personal definitions of words are if you’re going to be using those definitions instead of the usually accepted meanings of the words. WTF are you on about? They are “mercenary bodyguards” because they are mercenaries (paid non-army soldiers) who are currently paid to guard bodies (engineers, the Coalition high-ups, etc.). They are “fighting in an armed conflict” because that’s the situation they happen to be guarding those bodies in, and also because they have developed a lovely “shoot anything remotely threatening-looking” policy that wouldn’t go down so well if they were guarding Tom Cruise or Witney Houston. See, it can be both things at once, despite what you may think. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/242 "2005-08-05T06:16:35Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Jesus bleeding Christ. I’ve never before seen so much vicious dishonesty in three short paragraphs. If Coalition troops were even one tenth as brutal as the terrorists they’re fighting, you’d never accept an excuse as lame and pathetic as the one you’ve giving above, and you fucking well know it. It isn’t simpy that the terrorists “aren’t heroes.” They are monsters. You’re refusal to see that puts you on the same moral and intellectual level as a Holocaust denier. Quite the spittle off your keyboard – rate you’re going it’ll short in no time. Then again, I can’t imagine why that wouldn’t be a _good_ thing. Speaking of “Holocaust Deniers,” your remind more and more of a Good Little German with each passing post. > [@](#): > > If the terrorists are morally justified in not fighting by Queensbury rules, so is the Coalition. Are you saying they aren’t already? Here. fight your own ignorance – though I confess I don’t have much trust in your single working brain cell to do the job: [The War Crimes of George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld](http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=5241) In the interest of brevity and you’re nonexistent attention span, you may choose to scroll down to the following subheadings: [WAR CRIMES FROM THE AIR](http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=5241) [DEPLETED URANIUM](http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=5241) [CLUSTER BOMBS ARE INDISCRIMINATE](http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=5241) More: [Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse) [US admits it used napalm bombs in Iraq](http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030810-napalm-iraq01.htm) [US Lied to Britain Over Use of Napalm in Iraq War](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0617-01.htm) The Marquis is undoubtably rolling in his grave. > [@](#): > > Are you just naturally a lying asshole, or did you have to take lessons? If you must know, my asshole hasn’t decieved me once. However, should it feel the urge to learn how, I’ll make sure it contacts you. > [@](#): > > It isn’t possible to reason with someone who isn’t interested in the truth to begin with, and clearly you’re not. Finally, something we completely agree on! Only in reverse. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/243 "2005-08-05T06:28:52Z")
> [@light strand](#): > > I think that Bush and his advisers were pretty altruistic on this account. I think they completely, and totally believed that the entire Middle East would fall into democracy like dominoes if they just got rid of Saddam Hussein. Your naiveté is, all at once, admirable, astounding and frightening. Admirable becuase it shows a good heart with good intentions. Astounding because it goes against almost every fact that has been on display since _before_ the invasion. And lastly, frightening, becuase it shows how easily people can be manipulated into supporting/believing just about anything their leaders want them too – especially with the massive propaganda resources at their disposal in this day and age. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/244 "2005-08-05T11:57:29Z")
I was right. It is both: You are a liar and also have the same lack of knowledge of the English language as that other jackass, rwjefferson. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/245 "2005-08-05T11:59:47Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Speaking of “Holocaust Deniers,” your remind more and more of a Good Little German with each passing post. There are quite a few good little Germans who are not Holocaust deniers nor nazis. Try not to imply that an entire nation or race of people are all nazis, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/246 "2005-08-05T12:01:04Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Speaking of “Holocaust Deniers,” your remind more and more of a Good Little German with each passing post. There are quite a few good little Germans, the majority most likely, who are neither nazis nor Holocaust deniers. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/247 "2005-08-05T12:14:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So it’s not yet a full three-way throwdown. I understand that, but when one entire ethnic group is targeting others, and thousands are being killed, I think it’s pretty bad. I agree it’s not as bad as it _could_ be, though. > > Sounds like a three-way split-up is the best thing all round, then. Perhaps, but there will be a considerable amount of slaughter in deciding who gets to control what faction and what territory each faction gets to control. Perhaps this is inevitable, but if you actually care about the fate of Iraqis, why are you not insisting that the US at least try to clean up the mess in Iraq? Most Iraqis do not care for the occupiers but most Iraqis (Shia and Kurds) do not want the coalition to leave until they feel they have a fighting chance at survival. When Sistani, the majority spiritual leader in Iraq, demands that the coalition leaves, then I will support a withdraw. But at the moment, you are demanding something that most Iraqis do not want. > [@](#): > > Understood. They have very little legitimacy, I agree. But they do have some… If all that is required for legitimacy is the support of some of the population then the Coalition has far more. And on another note, Redfury, it really is possible to put forth very valid arguements against Bush and Rumsfeld without resorting to shrill propaganda. As soon as you trot out the words “war crimes” even I, who really hates Bush and Rumsfeld, stop listening. Perhaps my aversion to such terms comes from past run in’s with the anti-war movement which has a tendency to call everything that the military ever does as a “war crime.” The term has been so badly misapplied it’s lost all meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Balduran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Balduran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balduran)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/248 "2005-08-05T12:53:17Z")
In respsonse to **Light Strand** : > [@RedFury](#): > > Your naiveté is, all at once, admirable, astounding and frightening. I agree with light strand. I have posted Bush decided to remove Saddam ‘on day one’ before. It is not meant to be a complementary article, What is interesting however is the quote from O’Neil: “From the very beginning, there was a conviction that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go”. You could argue that this conviction is Naive, Dangerous, … , but there it is. According to an insider their main impetus was that SH was a bad guy. Not oil or WMD’s. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/249 "2005-08-05T12:54:24Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Your naiveté is, all at once, admirable, astounding and frightening. > > Admirable becuase it shows a good heart with good intentions. > > Astounding because it goes against almost every fact that has been on display since _before_ the invasion. > > And lastly, frightening, becuase it shows how easily people can be manipulated into supporting/believing just about anything their leaders want them too – especially with the massive propaganda resources at their disposal in this day and age. My dear **RedFury** it would behoove you to read about [the Project for the New American Century](http://www.newamericancentury.org/) prior to deciding whom you choose to distain. Please note the dates, and people who are involved in this little “think tank”. Get back to me when you are better informed. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/250 "2005-08-05T13:07:53Z")
> [@light strand](#): > > My dear **RedFury** it would behoove you to read about [the Project for the New American Century](http://www.newamericancentury.org/) prior to deciding whom you choose to distain. Please note the dates, and people who are involved in this little “think tank”. > > Get back to me when you are better informed. Can you be more specific about what you think this link proves or disproves as it’s not self evident to me? ---
**Author:** ![Ithaka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Ithaka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ithaka)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/251 "2005-08-05T13:25:37Z")
> [@light strand](#): > > My dear **RedFury** [the Project for the New American Century](http://www.newamericancentury.org/) Thanks for that link, it’s very interesting. Scary as hell, but interesting. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/252 "2005-08-05T13:27:37Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I was right. It is both: You are a liar and also have the same lack of knowledge of the English language as that other jackass, rwjefferson. Could you please point out exactly where I told a lie? You saing it doesn’t make it so. I’ve explained what the words mean, if you can’t link them up, may I suggest a remedial reading class? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/253 "2005-08-05T13:29:13Z")
I already suggested something similar to you: that you saying a non-military armed bodyguard is a mercenary doesn’t make it so. I join with a few others in this thread in saying you have no credibility on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/254 "2005-08-05T13:40:08Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I already suggested something similar to you: that you saying a non-military armed bodyguard is a mercenary doesn’t make it so. I join with a few others in this thread in saying you have no credibility on this issue. Refresh my memory as to who those others were, and what cites they used? I just remember a BBC link that backs _me_ up, so a citation would be helpful. Maybe you should look up the word mercenary in a dictionary sometime? ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/255 "2005-08-05T13:42:13Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Can you be more specific about what you think this link proves or disproves as it’s not self evident to me? Since you’ve ask nicely, instead of calling names, I’ll elaborate. The Project for the New American Century is an insidious little group led by, and with the deep involvement of, many, many members of the Bush Administration including, among others Rumsfeld, Wolfolwitz, and Bolton. They have been advocating the overthrow or Iraq since at least 1998. [Here](http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm) is a letter to Clinton from Jan 1998 stating > [@](#): > > We are writing you because we are convinced that current American policy toward Iraq is not succeeding, and that we may soon face a threat in the Middle East more serious than any we have known since the end of the Cold War. > > [snip] > Given the magnitude of the threat, the current policy, which depends for its success upon the steadfastness of our coalition partners and upon the cooperation of Saddam Hussein, is dangerously inadequate. The only acceptable strategy is one that eliminates the possibility that Iraq will be able to use or threaten to use weapons of mass destruction. In the near term, this means a willingness to undertake military action as diplomacy is clearly failing. In the long term, it means removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power. That now needs to become the aim of American foreign policy. There is also a bunch of BS about WMD in that letter. Please note the signatures. Then there is [this](http://www.newamericancentury.org/Bushletter.htm) letter from 2001 stating > [@](#): > > We agree with Secretary of State Powell’s recent statement that Saddam Hussein “is one of the leading terrorists on the face of the Earth….” It may be that the Iraqi government provided assistance in some form to the recent attack on the United States. But even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack, any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq. Failure to undertake such an effort will constitute an early and perhaps decisive surrender in the war on international terrorism. The United States must therefore provide full military and financial support to the Iraqi opposition. American military force should be used to provide a “safe zone” in Iraq from which the opposition can operate. And American forces must be prepared to back up our commitment to the Iraqi opposition by all necessary means. Or take a look at any of the letters/memos here: [http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqmiddleeast2000-1997.htm](http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqmiddleeast2000-1997.htm) The men involved in PNAC have had a hard-on for Hussein since their inception. They have a strange view of Foreign Policy which is basically “meddle with everyone until we get what we want, as long as they have something we want” Thus the reason they ignore Africa. They are extremely pro-Israel, and believe that if the Midlle East becomes democratic, then Israel will be safe. Basically, they are creepy little men who had theories. They got their guy in power, and convinced him to implement their plans. This is when they learned that stuff on paper, doesn’t work so well in practice. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/256 "2005-08-05T13:47:47Z")
Hey, jackass, I see “hired for service in a foreign army.” I don’t see “armed bodyguard.” You, therefore, lie. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/257 "2005-08-05T13:51:05Z")
Thanks Light - I knew all that. Maybe I’m dense but I just don’t understand what debating point it addressed regarding Red Fury. Genuine question, no intention to be snarky. ---
**Author:** ![Ithaka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Ithaka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ithaka)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/258 "2005-08-05T13:53:50Z")
**Monty** , if we can get past name calling can I refer you to my earlier posts on the mercenary issue which you don’t seem to have noticed. Specifically the BBC link. We can argue all we like about semantics and dictionary definitions but reality has to impinge somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/259 "2005-08-05T13:58:03Z")
> [@Ithaka](#): > > Thanks for that link, it’s very interesting. Scary as hell, but interesting. I find it maddening that people are still only finding out about the PNAC. The cunts have had their game plan on the web for all to see for a very long time now and people still think it was a relativly new decision to go after SH and Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Ithaka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Ithaka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ithaka)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/260 "2005-08-05T14:04:41Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > I find it maddening that people are still only finding out about the PNAC. The cunts have had their game plan on the web for all to see for a very long time now and people still think it was a relativly new decision to go after SH and Iraq. I did know that this has been a long term goal for Bush and co. For some reason though I’ve never actually seen the site - didn’t believe it was all quite as blatant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406.md?page=14)