# (Iraq-Related) Am I the only one... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2005, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406 "2005-08-03T11:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/21 "2005-08-03T12:08:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Of course not. But then, those targeted are mostly those cooperating with the coalition forces. Hardly makes _them_ objective either, does it? What are you on about? Someone who’s trying to support his family and have peace in his country doesn’t need to be objective when describing murderers. > [@](#): > > Look, let me say outright I don’t condone all their methods, some of the things they do are just plain fucked up. Actually, it seems to me that you are condoning their methods by excusing them with the label of patriot. > [@](#): > > Doesn’t make their struggle any less legitimate, any more than a lot of necklacings of informers and collaborators here made the struggle against apartheid any less right. There were those who struggled against apartheid without killing folks. Those individuals were patriots. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/22 "2005-08-03T12:10:28Z")
The problem is that “insurgents” encompasses a wide variety of folks. There’re those who’re fighting foreign invaders who happen to be the coailition forces. There’re those who’re fighting foreign invaders who happen to be jihadis. There’re those who are foreign invaders who happen to be jihadis. Some who’re acting from motives unrelated to the invasion- revenge killings, assassinations, extortion, etc. Etc. To speak of the ‘insurgency’ as being anywhere near monolithic is overly simplistic. I can’t say I root for any of them. This ain’t sports. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/23 "2005-08-03T12:15:16Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Apparently, “patriot” has changed meaning along with “freedom”. Targeting civilians is sufficient in and of itself to disqualify them from patriot status, as far as I’m concerned. Resisters in early America and Vichy France were patriots. One of my sisters recently visited the area in Canada where some of our ancestors relocated after being forced out of what would become the United States. Moral ambiguity - it’s everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/24 "2005-08-03T12:15:38Z")
I root for this war to be over, period. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/25 "2005-08-03T12:16:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Why? No, really, who is holding a gun to your collective heads, that prevents you from leaving if you want to? Given that we took down Saddam’s government, your suggestion is that we should just have left? With nobody in charge? A complete power vacuum is the solution you suggest. If that’s not your goal, then the only possible choice is to stay until a government consolidates power and exercises control over the area, which is being prevented by insurgents. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/26 "2005-08-03T12:40:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > … who roots for the insurgency? > > That’s all, really. I see the American invasion as the unjustifiable aggressive act of a global bully, and would dearly like the American/coalition forces to leave. Right now, that only looks like happening if the insurgency is victorious _a la_ the Viet Cong, so I root for them. > > Anyone else? As others have stated, this “insurgency” is far more monolithic. Any targeting of civilians specifically excludes me rooting for a specific subset of this insurgency. So, once that is out of the way the next question is “What are their motives?”. Are they local Iraqis fighting against a perceived invasion of their homeland? Is their goal a stable and inclusive government, something they feel the United States presence will not provide? Sure, I can understand that. But if their motives is more of a personal interest, namely they are fighting because their very specific group wants control of the country, or worse, if they are foreigners fighting to destabalize the country, than no. I don’t see that as ethically different from a foreign occupation. Bottom line, think hard about what one roots for. Because you may just get it.\* \*Or in this case, other people who don’t really deserve it might just get it. You’ll be fine 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/27 "2005-08-03T12:41:33Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > As others have stated, this “insurgency” is far more monolithic. As others have stated, this “insurgency” is far **from** monolithic. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/28 "2005-08-03T13:00:48Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Given that we took down Saddam’s government, your suggestion is that we should just have left? With nobody in charge? A complete power vacuum is the solution you suggest. There are lots of alternatives to those two options: A UN peacekeeping force, restoring SH’s government and apologising, hell, letting the new “government” sink or swim by itself. Saying “fuck Turkey” and splitting the country up into 3 regions… Now, not many of these are attractive solutions. I just maintain that continuing occupancy sits right up there with some of the worse. Perhaps I should rephrase my OP’s point.: It is sometimes stated in threads about Iraq that the occupation is terrible, but it is the lesser of two evils. I maintain that that’s not true, it is the worse of any two evils you care to name, and that includes outright civil war. I’m aware that noone else agrees with that. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/29 "2005-08-03T13:01:48Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > To be fair, **Lib** , it appears that some of the pro-independence fighters in the American colonies also targeted civilians among the “Tories” or British loyalists. There probably isn’t a case in history where “patriotic” rebels didn’t commit some terrorist acts against those whom they considered “collaborators” with an oppressive regime. You’re probably right. But what does that have to do with indiscriminate murder? When you blow up a whole street corner, you are not differentiating between collaborators and bystanders. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/30 "2005-08-03T13:13:02Z")
No, of course you’re not the only one rooting for the insurgency. For company, you have Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, al Queda, and Islamo-fascists in general. Which puts me into a particular quandary. It is bad form to wish that a fellow Doper have his teeth knocked down his throat with a rifle butt. So I can’t wish that. But terrorists - and their sympathizers - deserve to have _their_ teeth knocked down their throats with a rifle butt. But I can’t wish for that, even though you are rooting for the death of my fellow citizens, and my nephew and his buddies. Darn. Put it this way, **MrDibble** - maybe there is justice in the world, and you and those who sympathize with the insurgents in Iraq will get from them what the insurgents do to civilians. Against my wishes, of course. No regards this time, you filth. Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/31 "2005-08-03T13:19:56Z")
These people are blowing up their fellow countrymen, damaging their infrastructure, and preventing the country from becoming truly independent and they are patriots? How in the fuck does that work exactly? Oh, I know. We’re an invading force. :rolleyes: That’s just idiotic. I was against the war, but even I can’t say that getting rid of Saddam was a bad thing. At this point all we want to do is get their government up and running so they can take care of themselves (and sell us cheap oil wakka wakka wakka). We can’t do that while the country is tearing itself apart. The only patriots in Iraq are the ones working hard and risking death to make their country self sufficient. Strapping a bomb to your chest only makes you a terrorist. Shades of grey indeed. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/32 "2005-08-03T13:20:33Z")
Bravo, **Shodan**. Oh, and can everybody rooting for the terrorists in this war please also post thier political persuasion? I’m genuinely curious. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/33 "2005-08-03T13:25:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There are lots of alternatives to those two options: A UN peacekeeping force, restoring SH’s government and apologising, hell, letting the new “government” sink or swim by itself. Saying “fuck Turkey” and splitting the country up into 3 regions… Would the insurgents go away if this were a UN peacekeeping force? I don’t think so. The entire point of the war was to oust SH, so putting him back in charge seems singularly stupid. You again suggest a power vacuum. If we didn’t stay there, there would be no government at all to sink or swim, it would just be instant civil war, with no controlling body whatsoever. Elections? Yeah, right. Who, exactly, is going to decide to split the country up into 3 regions? There is no controlling government in Iraq, and I can’t imagine that you want George Bush to make that decision. The UN perhaps, though one would imagine that Iraqis should probably have a say in it, only they have no clear leadership. The reality is that the insurgents give the US an excuse to stay there. Regardless of whether or not you’re skeptical of our motives, we currently have a reason to be there. The best chance the Iraqi people have to get back on their feet as a nation is for the insurgents to quit their nonsense, for the Iraqi government to solidify control over the region, and for the US to get the hell out. None of this happens if the insurgents keep blowing up street corners and oil pipelines. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/34 "2005-08-03T13:30:09Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You’re probably right. But what does that have to do with indiscriminate murder? When you blow up a whole street corner, you are not differentiating between collaborators and bystanders. You didn’t say indiscriminate murder. You simply said that merely targeting civilians was cause to have their “patriot” status revoked. > [@Ithaka](#): > > So you don’t support either side? Call me when the US deliberately drops a bomb on a market that they know to be a market, simply to try and kill as many civilians as possible and terrorize the populace into acquiesence. I don’t think the invasion should have happened. I don’t think Bush invaded for the right reasons. I think this Administration’s decisions on how the post-invasion occupancy was to go has been one disaster after another. However, at this point, the US simply pulling out would be a complete disaster for Iraq and the region in general. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/35 "2005-08-03T13:32:06Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > . . . Oh, and can everybody rooting for the terrorists in this war please also post thier political persuasion? I’m genuinely curious. :rolleyes: “Everybody?” So far, that’s one poster to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/36 "2005-08-03T13:35:11Z")
More will probably show up, unfortunately. We’ve already had numerous threads on the SDMB where posters have wished death on US troops. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/37 "2005-08-03T13:35:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But then, those targeted are mostly those cooperating with the coalition forces. Hardly makes _them_ objective either, does it? So those lousy kids happily catching candy being thrown from humvees _deserve_ to be blown up, eh? > [@ivylass](#): > > It’s not their country. The majority of the terrorists are coming over from Iran and Syria. Bullshit. It’s homegrown. They’re stopping just shy of spray painting “WOLVERINES” on the walls. Sure there’s outsiders coming in, but where are they staying? Who’s feeding them? Are the neighbors blind to their comings and goings? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/38 "2005-08-03T13:39:50Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > More will probably show up, unfortunately. We’ve already had numerous threads on the SDMB where posters have wished death on US troops. While you openly wave your pom-poms when it’s the US troops doing the killing. Are these the “terrorists” you keep harping about? [14 U.S. Marines Are Killed in Iraq](http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5186699,00.html) > [@](#): > > A Marine amphibious assault vehicle on patrol during combat operations near the Syrian border hit a roadside bomb Wednesday, and 14 Marines were killed in one of the deadliest single attacks in Iraq against American forces. > > A civilian interpreter also was killed in the bombing, which came two days after seven Marines died in the same area during combat with insurgents. At least 1,820 members of the U.S. military have died since the Iraq war began in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/39 "2005-08-03T13:40:48Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > So those lousy kids happily catching candy being thrown from humvees _deserve_ to be blown up, eh? Collaborators, clearly. > [@ivylass](#): > > The majority of the terrorists are coming over from Iran and Syria. Sorry, but there’s just no way of confirming this at this time. Undoubtedly _some_ are foreign, but _some_ are also undoubtedly domestic. There’s no real way of knowing the exact ratios, however. ---
**Author:** ![Ithaka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Ithaka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ithaka)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/40 "2005-08-03T13:43:20Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Call me when the US deliberately drops a bomb on a market that they know to be a market, simply to try and kill as many civilians as possible and terrorize the populace into acquiesence. Do you remember the end of WW2? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406.md?page=3)