# (Iraq-Related) Am I the only one... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2005, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406 "2005-08-03T11:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/81 "2005-08-03T15:32:45Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Please enlighten me as to who that would be and how the United States is directly responsible. The people of Iran when the US overthrew their fledgling secular democracy and re-installed a brutal autocrat, directly leading to their current plight in theocracy. The people of Central America, after the US overthrew fledgling democracies and/or brutally helped repress democratic movements in support of puppet dictators, helping to lead to 40 years of civil wars leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths. We won’t get into the US being directly involved in the overthrow of democracies in South America. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/82 "2005-08-03T15:38:48Z")
> [@MMI](#): > > Even trying to look at it from an objective, non-American point of view I can see no actual benefits to Iraq (or really the world) from an insurgency victory. And I am no fan of the present administration. The benefit of not living under the grinding jackboot of a foreign oppressor? I take it you’ve never lived under a truly oppressive regime. It’s not funny, let me tell you. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/83 "2005-08-03T15:45:53Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > The people of Iran when the US overthrew their fledgling secular democracy and re-installed a brutal autocrat, directly leading to their current plight in theocracy. > > The people of Central America, after the US overthrew fledgling democracies and/or brutally helped repress democratic movements in support of puppet dictators, helping to lead to 40 years of civil wars leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths. > > We won’t get into the US being directly involved in the overthrow of democracies in South America. Let’s add in Indonesia in the sixties and the Year Zero Cambodia holocaust springing indirectly from the Vietnam war destabilisation of society and the direct interference in internal politics and the West’s diplomatic support of Pol Pot after the war. How about the endless fomenting of civil wars in Africa and enduring support of apartheid south africa? And the continuing refusal to play fair with trade rules for developing countries. The USA, like the USSR played power politics in the name of short term national interest with no regard for the lives they were sacrificing and the cost was and continues to be appalling. No one with any knowledge of 20th century history or international relations can doubt that. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/84 "2005-08-03T15:50:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The benefit of not living under the grinding jackboot of a foreign oppressor? > > I take it you’ve never lived under a truly oppressive regime. It’s not funny, let me tell you. And yet your entire thread is in support of the factions in Iraq that want to brutally impose an oppressive regime on that country. Odd disconnect, that. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/85 "2005-08-03T15:56:36Z")
**MrDribble** , You know you’re fighting a losing battle by mentally jousting with people who think that the United States is the basis of all that is good in the world. Nothing you say here will disturb that fantasy ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/86 "2005-08-03T15:58:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The benefit of not living under the grinding jackboot of a foreign oppressor? > > I take it you’ve never lived under a truly oppressive regime. It’s not funny, let me tell you. You’re a complete and utter idiot, aren’t you? Do you really think that the insurgents blowing up civilians and damaging the infrastructure are helping the country? Do you think that they are paving the way to freedom? Do you think that they are blowing up civilians to help civilians? I want to know how this train of thought works. Someone please explain the logic behind this, because I simply cannot understand it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/87 "2005-08-03T15:59:18Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > And yet your entire thread is in support of the factions in Iraq that want to brutally impose an oppressive regime on that country. Odd disconnect, that. It may be a brutal oppressive regime, it might not - Iraq has a long history of secular rule. And whatever system arises, it will at least have the legitimacy of being homegrown. The US invasion force has the twin negatives of being both brutal and foreign. I say give the Iraqis a chance on their own. Not that apartheid wasn’t a homegrown system, either. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/88 "2005-08-03T15:59:26Z")
I’ll add to all of those wonderful examples our boneheaded support in the 80’s of SH and OBL. Same sort bullshit we’re doing with Musharref right now. Boy is that going to hurt when he bites us in the ass in about 15 years. The good/bad thing isn’t mutually exclusive. You could certainly make the argument that the US has done positive things that have helped millions, you’d be correct. It goes the other way as well, as we’ve fucked over millions, and that was pretty much my point. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/89 "2005-08-03T16:01:02Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > **MrDribble** , You know you’re fighting a losing battle by mentally jousting with people who think that the United States is the basis of all that is good in the world. Nothing you say here will disturb that fantasy I don’t think that America is perfect, but we’re saints compared to people who load a car with explosives and detonate it around their own countrymen. Do you agree or disagree? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/90 "2005-08-03T16:03:17Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > You’re a complete and utter idiot, aren’t you? > > Do you really think that the insurgents blowing up civilians and damaging the infrastructure are helping the country? Do you think that they are paving the way to freedom? Do you think that they are blowing up civilians to help civilians? > > I want to know how this train of thought works. Someone please explain the logic behind this, because I simply cannot understand it. Let’s just say I don’t give a shit what they do to each other, it’s what they do to US troops that interests me. ---
**Author:** ![Ithaka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Ithaka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ithaka)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/91 "2005-08-03T16:04:22Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > I don’t think that America is perfect, but we’re saints compared to people who load a car with explosives and detonate it around their own countrymen. > > Do you agree or disagree? I don’t think you can do a comparison between an entire country and terrorist elements of another. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/92 "2005-08-03T16:05:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Let’s just say I don’t give a shit what they do to each other, Aren’t you lucky that the rest of the world didn’t take this same attitude towards Apartheid? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/93 "2005-08-03T16:06:46Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > I don’t think that America is perfect, but we’re saints compared to people who load a car with explosives and detonate it around their own countrymen. > > Do you agree or disagree? Well, I’m not **NurseCarmen** , but I disagree. You are not saints. Just because you blow up wedding parties by remote control rather than the insurgents’ way, doesn’t absolve you of the evil. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/94 "2005-08-03T16:09:11Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > **MrDribble** , You know you’re fighting a losing battle by mentally jousting with people who think that the United States is the basis of all that is good in the world. Nothing you say here will disturb that fantasy The above quote provokes a hearty “amen!” even from an avowed atheist such as myself. Disclaimer for those that need it. That does NOT mean the opposite, i.e., that US is not the sole purveyor of evil in the world. Merely a repetition of history, where time and again the greatest powers were always seeking to augment their lot. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/95 "2005-08-03T16:10:50Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Aren’t you lucky that the rest of the world didn’t take this same attitude towards Apartheid? Well, from the fifties to the mid-eighties, that’s exactly what “the rest of the world” did. The US only got involved because the USSR was the ANC’s biggest ally, and they undercut that support. Up until then, they were quite happy to pay the Boers for their gold and diamonds, and look the other way. America never liberated us, Yankee, we liberated ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/96 "2005-08-03T16:10:58Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > I don’t think that America is perfect, but we’re saints compared to people who load a car with explosives and detonate it around their own countrymen. Do you actually believe that there aren’t circumstances that would make a section of the US public carry out terrorist actions? What’s so special about the US population? Humans can be cunts given the right impetus. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/97 "2005-08-03T16:13:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, I’m not **NurseCarmen** , but I disagree. You are not saints. Just because you blow up wedding parties by remote control rather than the insurgents’ way, doesn’t absolve you of the evil. We did that on purpose? I must’ve missed that. And I never said that we are absolved of the evil. We’re pretty fuckin far from perfect and I have never said and will never say otherwise. I will say that we are a far cry better than those who harm their fellow Iraqis on purpose to make a political point. If these insurgents are so dedicated to helping Iraq, they should be forming a political party and trying to rebuild the country instead of blowing it up and killing it’s citizens. Does that make sense? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/98 "2005-08-03T16:15:15Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Do you actually believe that there aren’t circumstances that would make a section of the US public carry out terrorist actions? > > What’s so special about the US population? Humans can be cunts given the right impetus. End of story. Yeah, and I’d be right pissed about them too. I don’t remember saying that terrorism was acceptable in some cases and unacceptable in others. How about you refresh my memory. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/99 "2005-08-03T16:17:35Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > I don’t think that America is perfect, but we’re saints compared to people who load a car with explosives and detonate it around their own countrymen. Yet that is exactly what at least one of [your own countrymen did](http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/mcveigh/docs.html?sect=1). And, unlike Iraq, the only war that he was involved in was the one that was raging inside his head. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/100 "2005-08-03T16:21:38Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Yet that is exactly what at least one of [your own countrymen did](http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/mcveigh/docs.html?sect=1). And, unlike Iraq, the only war that he was involved in was the one that was raging inside his head. And this has fuckall to do with what exactly? This is about Iraq correct? This is about the insurgents vs. the American troops over there, right? And to make this perfectly fucking clear to every goddamned idiot in this thread who make think otherwise. I THINK THAT TERRORISM IN ANY FORM IS WRONG REGARDLESS OF WHO DOES IT AND WHAT THERE INTENTIONS ARE!! Are we clear on that point at least? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406.md?page=6)