# (Iraq-Related) Am I the only one... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2005, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406 "2005-08-03T11:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/121 "2005-08-03T18:26:36Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > For the record, it was **Debaser** who said what you quoted, not me. I was just quoting him. No, it was [rfgdxm](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5658927&postcount=7) who said it. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/122 "2005-08-03T18:29:28Z")
> [@Genghis Bob](#): > > No, it was [rfgdxm](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5658927&postcount=7) who said it. Nope, it was definately **Debaser**. See post 36. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/123 "2005-08-03T18:32:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Great post? For another thread maybe. Your first sentence in post 37 made a wonderful point directly related to the OP. But, hey why not take _another_ opportunity to point out what’s wrong with the U.S. What fresh insight! > > You can’t even take an unequivocal stance against animals that blow up kids being handed candy? Unfuckingbelievable. Eh? Where in that post did **NurseCarmen** defend the insurgents? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/124 "2005-08-03T18:41:38Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Strictly speaking, they’re not insurgents. They’re patriots. > > So, I wouldn’t quite say I root for them, but I’m sympathetic. They are not patriots. They are mad dogs. And any expression of sympathy with these mad dogs is a confession of moral imbecility on the part of the confessor. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/125 "2005-08-03T18:52:45Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > I don’t really see why a fascist regime gains any credibility simply by being homegrown. I also don’t like the “there is an enemy therefore the other side must be a friend” mentality. In this case, a hatred of the foreign US troops implies that the insurgents, regardless of motives, gets a free pass. This is a very bad idea. > > Ultimately, the question is what is in the best interest of Iraqi lives? Would a pull out of the US troops at this point pave the way for democracy to take root? Or would the whole country collapse under the weight of political in-fighting? Or would a minority/majority race or religion take control and oppress the rest? > > **MrDibble** , you say that you do not give a shit what the Iraqis do to each other, but rather are interested in what they do to US troops. This tells me that you are less interested in the actual fate of average Iraqis and more interested in viewing this as a spectator sport, where you hope your guy wins. This is an attitude which I have noticed on both sides of arguments like this. It’s a tragedy, because real people are caught in the middle while the rest of us watch on, popcorn and remote in hand. I think this approaches the heart of the matter, and exposes what’s wrong with the OP. To be a patriot, one must have the best interests of ones country and people at heart. It is painfully obvious from even the most cursory reading that the Iraqi insurgents don’t. They are largely mere thugs interested in causing trouble, leavened with a generous portion of religious fanatics. If they are Iraqi patriots then Tim Mcveigh was an American patriot. As **Driver8** says, the real question is what’s in the best interest of the Iraqi people. Given that we don’t have a time machine, we have to ask this question looking at the situation now. I am not convinced that pulling out of Iraq immediately and unconditionally would be doing the average Iraqi any favors. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/126 "2005-08-03T18:57:31Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > Nope, it was definately **Debaser**. See post 36. Okay, gotcha. I thought you were referring to the other, unattributed quote. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/127 "2005-08-03T19:40:52Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > As **Driver8** says, the real question is what’s in the best interest of the Iraqi people. Given that we don’t have a time machine, we have to ask this question looking at the situation now. I am not convinced that pulling out of Iraq immediately and unconditionally would be doing the average Iraqi any favors. On the other hand I don’t think staying in serves the average American any favors. It’s like we’re paying someone a billion dollars to punch us in the face repeatedly. There’s no winning here, only degrees of losing. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/128 "2005-08-03T19:55:42Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > As long as Iraq is destabilized, the insurgents are accomplishing their goals and winning the conflict. The longer we’re there, the more likelyhood of us during stupid things that make us look really really bad. This war is creating more terrorists globally then we’re eliminating, just through sheer PR value alone. So we need to do better, not pack up and leave. We’re not going to stop creating terrorists by cutting and running. We may even encourage them. We’d also be leaving the Iraqi people in a real mess. Nope. We’re in this mess for the full long and hard slog. I’m not happy about it. There’s a lot about this war that I’m not happy about, but we have to try to clean up the mess we made. I think we owe the Iraqis that much. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/129 "2005-08-03T19:57:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Eh? Where in that post did **NurseCarmen** defend the insurgents? I’m a bit stumped on that one too. Maybe he thinks that I honestly believe kids deserve to be blown up? **magellan01** , maybe if you moved your lips while you read it would help your comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/130 "2005-08-03T20:42:46Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > So we need to do better, not pack up and leave. What exactly does “doing better” entail? I’m not saying you need to give me answer, just that doing better means doing something different. Frankly, I don’t see the current admin doing anything different, just more of the same “harder”. That unfortunately won’t cut it. Keep in mind that our leadership got us into this quagmire with their mode of thinking. The people that cause the problems rarely fix them. > [@](#): > > Nope. We’re in this mess for the full long and hard slog. I’m not happy about it. There’s a lot about this war that I’m not happy about, but we have to try to clean up the mess we made. I think we owe the Iraqis that much. My concern to which I hope you’ll agree is valid, is that that in trying to clean things up, we’ll make an even bigger mess. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/131 "2005-08-03T21:06:23Z")
I don’t approve of some of the methods used by the Iraqi rebels. This does not mean the American army of occupation get a pass. So what if the Americans overthrew SH? That doesn’t make you Big Damn Heroes, it makes you bullies who just happened to pick on a bully for once. A bully you made, BTW. Let’s see - Mugabe, Il Jong, Musharaff, Saud - gosh, there’s a whole lot of brutal dictators begging for that Good Ol’ Boy treatment. So much for that excuse. oh, and **Weirdave**? We’ve had 3-arm swastika-wearing troglodytes blowing shit up in the New South Africa. Guess what, we didn’t blow up Afrikaner weddings and build little pyramids of hooded Boers. We put the guilty people on trial, like a civilized country. Here, the people who chanted “one settler, one bullet” are an embarresment. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/132 "2005-08-03T21:11:15Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > So we need to do better, not pack up and leave. We’re not going to stop creating terrorists by cutting and running. We may even encourage them. We’d also be leaving the Iraqi people in a real mess. What, exactly, does “doing better” entail? I’d really like to know. If you don’t mean “more of the same, but harder”, what do you mean? What will you do different, and why do you think it’d work. I can’t see more of the same doing more than getting more Americans, Iraqis and others killed. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/133 "2005-08-03T21:15:01Z")
Good fucking Lord. Who in their right fucking minds “roots” for someone, anyone, in a war? You are a sick fuck. These are people, they are not things. Those troops are someone’s son, husband, and father. Those children are the future of the country. Even the insurgents, misled as they are, are not a fucking football team. When there is a claim of 300 killed, 400 killed, 50 killed; it’s fucking shocking. It’s certainly not a time to cheer, no matter what “side” you’re on. That said, there is not ambiguity in my feelings, my husband is a Marine. Every time I hear 40 marines killed, I immediately look to see what base they were from to see if it was anyone I know. But I also see people watching videos of bombings, cheering as if it’s a video game, and I think that sick too. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/134 "2005-08-03T21:34:00Z")
Right, right. “Rooting” was a bad choice of words. I apologise. It clearly doesn’t properly explain how I feel, or how I react to news from Iraq. I don’t know how else to say it, though - when it comes to the Iraq war, i do not support the American troops. I negatively support them. I unsupport them. I think they are the ones who are the most wrong, and are the invaders. No amount of spin or _post hoc_ justification can make up for the fact that they are on _the wrong side_. They are the bad guys. Put it in any language you find acceptable - that was the point of my OP. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/135 "2005-08-03T21:34:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What, exactly, does “doing better” entail? I’d really like to know. If you don’t mean “more of the same, but harder”, what do you mean? What will you do different, and why do you think it’d work. I can’t see more of the same doing more than getting more Americans, Iraqis and others killed. Well, I’d love to get more of our old school allies involved and the UN would be nice. Get some of their neighbors to give some support too (except Iran. Too much bad blood there.) Unfortunately Bush and his bridge burning school of diplomacy seemed to have funked that up royally. Next, we’d have to make sure that those responsible for things like Abu Ghraib prison, etc. are punished to the letter of the law. That won’t do a damn thing to impress the extremists, but it would prove to the moderates that we are serious. Third, learning more about muslim culture would help us avoid stepping on any toes with regards to religious taboos. I know that it is not much, but this is a situation where there are no easy answers and no magic bullets. I believe the best term to describe it is FUBAR. Americans are going to die. Iraqis are going to die. To think that we can prevent these deaths is incredibly naive. I think we set the insurgents up pretty well by going in fast and hard and by losing most of our traditional allies. Now there really is nothing to do but do the best that we can. If I may ask a question or two, how would you fix the situation? Do you think that pulling our troops is the right idea? Do you think the Iraqis would be better without our troops or worse? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/136 "2005-08-03T21:39:06Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > On the other hand I don’t think staying in serves the average American any favors. It’s like we’re paying someone a billion dollars to punch us in the face repeatedly. > > There’s no winning here, only degrees of losing. Yes, you are right. We should never have gone into Iraq in the first place. Having gone in, we should, have had a plan to cope with an insurgency, and never have comitted the numerous blunders we did commit. However, now that we’re there, Colin Powell’s famous “pottery barn” rule applies: You break it, you bought it. (Yes, I know that’s not actual Pottery Barn policy.) We have a moral responsibility as well as a strong practical interest in making sure Iraq has at least a chance at stability before we leave. We owe that to the Iraqis. **Mr. Dibble** , if you have any plans to establish a secure stable Iraq, I’d love to hear them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/137 "2005-08-03T21:43:04Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > **MrDibble** , you say that you do not give a shit what the Iraqis do to each other, but rather are interested in what they do to US troops. This tells me that you are less interested in the actual fate of average Iraqis and more interested in viewing this as a spectator sport, where you hope your guy wins. I meant **as far as my OP is concerned** , I don’t give a shit about Iraqis killing Iraqis, only Iraqis/insurgents/patriots/whatever and Coalition troops killing each other. The Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence had only been pointed out to me as “look, we’re still miles better than _them_”. As though this somehow magically made the US\* good guys\*. Guess what, it’s possible for **both** sides in a conflict to be a set of evil sonsabitches. Like Iraq… ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/138 "2005-08-03T21:45:26Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > Yes, you are right. We should never have gone into Iraq in the first place. Having gone in, we should, have had a plan to cope with an insurgency, and never have comitted the numerous blunders we did commit. The people who committed the “numerous blunders” are still calling the shots, and still committing blunders. With this in mind, why would any sane person expect anything other then more fuckups? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/139 "2005-08-03T21:50:41Z")
> [@](#): > > The people who committed the “numerous blunders” are still calling the shots, and still committing blunders. With this in mind, why would any sane person expect anything other then more fuckups? Sadly, you’re right again. Why the country didn’t send such utter incompetents packing in 2004 is still a mystery. My only hope–a slim one, I admit–is that the pressure of reality will force them to re-think tactics. Right now the situation is so utterly fucked that it will take years, if not decades, before there’s any chance of stability. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/140 "2005-08-03T21:50:46Z")
I know this isn’t my question but I’ll take a stab at it. > [@Harborwolf](#): > > If I may ask a question or two, how would you fix the situation? Admit we fucked up royally, ask the worlds help, and either way we’re getting the fuck out. Yep that’s right I said it, leave them twisting in the wind and pull out. > [@](#): > > Do you think the Iraqis would be better without our troops or worse? The question is will Americans be better off or worse? After we wipe the egg off our face, I say in the long run we’ll be better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406.md?page=8)