# (Iraq-Related) Am I the only one... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2005, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406 "2005-08-03T11:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/141 "2005-08-03T21:52:03Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > My only hope–a slim one, I admit–is that the pressure of reality will force them to re-think tactics. I’m hoping along with you bro. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/142 "2005-08-03T21:52:50Z")
Speaking of fantasy, “corrupt government?” What are you on about, Dribble? Speaking of fantasy, “Il Jong?” I’ll assume you’re referring to Kim Il Jong of North Korea there. Are you completely unaware of geography and political reality? Good thing you put this thread in the Pit, Dribble, since that permits me to point out that you are truly an ignorant jerk and are just parading your hatred of America here with a thin, nay, invisible disguise. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/143 "2005-08-03T21:52:58Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > We owe that to the Iraqis. I’d say you don’t “owe” the Iraqis anything. War and its oftermath is not a commercial transaction. Maybe you owe them some time without any more Irqis killed by Americans. > [@Larry Borgia](#): > > **Mr. Dibble** , if you have any plans to establish a secure stable Iraq, I’d love to hear them. I don’t _have_ plans to secure a stable Iraq, other than to say I think the American presence is not helping. Nor is installing another puppet regime and expecting it to have any legitimacy. My plan goes like this: pull every coalition person completely out of Iraq. This includes Haliburton and their ilk, the NGOs and ALL the military. Then wait and see. Things might be tough for them for a while, but see, there’s always hope. Vietnam today doesn’t strike me as a hellhole. Who could have predicted that when the last chopper pulled out of Saigon? Or that South Africa would just relatively peacefully sliip into majority rule? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/144 "2005-08-03T21:55:52Z")
Vietnam is certainly a hellhole today for those of its government’s subjects who do not toe the party line. There are those who are punished–and punished severely–for the simple act of worshipping. BTW, the Viet Cong weren’t an independent entity. Did you see those tanks and uniformed soldiers who rolled into Saigon? That was what’s conventionally referred to as a standing army, not insurgents. Again, you are doing a wonderful job of displaying your ignorance here. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/145 "2005-08-03T22:00:27Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Speaking of fantasy, “corrupt government?” What are you on about, Dribble? [QUOTE=Monty] The way your ruling Junta is a shill for corporate interests, of course. And it’s _MrDibble_ . I’ll thank you to use spell it properly. > [@Monty](#): > > Speaking of fantasy, “Il Jong?” I’ll assume you’re referring to Kim Il Jong of North Korea there. Are you completely unaware of geography and political reality? Like the political reality that Iraqis would not necessarily strew roses in your path? Like the geography that Iraq is surrounded by other countries that might not be sympathetic to an American prescence on their doorsteps? Why let reality stop you after Iraq, if it didn’t before? > [@Monty](#): > > Good thing you put this thread in the Pit, Dribble, since that permits me to point out that you are truly an ignorant jerk and are just parading your hatred of America here with a thin, nay, invisible disguise. I don’t hate America. Some of my favourite people are Americans. I just don’t like your current government and its evil imperialist occupation of another country. Got no problem with your involvement in Afghanistan, for instance. And it’s **MrDibble** , but I think you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/146 "2005-08-03T22:04:32Z")
Yep, you’re insanse. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/147 "2005-08-03T22:06:10Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Vietnam is certainly a hellhole today for those of its government’s subjects who do not toe the party line. There are those who are punished–and punished severely–for the simple act of worshipping. That’s awful. Tell me more… > [@Monty](#): > > BTW, the Viet Cong weren’t an independent entity. Did you see those tanks and uniformed soldiers who rolled into Saigon? That was what’s conventionally referred to as a standing army, not insurgents. > > Again, you are doing a wonderful job of displaying your ignorance here. Yeah, it’s army regulars who’ve sunk into the American subconcious as an unkillable enemy in black pyjamas. I’m aware of who the NVA were. Are you saying the VC had a negligible effect on the outcome of the Vietnam War? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/148 "2005-08-03T22:06:15Z")
That last word is misspelled. The post is supposed to read: > [@](#): > > Yep, you’re insane. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/149 "2005-08-03T22:12:57Z")
Wow. Remind me to take some Immodium before I wade in the Pit again. MrDibble, is the world not an ugly enough place without your particular brand nastiness? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/150 "2005-08-03T22:23:23Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Eh? Where in that post did **NurseCarmen** defend the insurgents? Must not have been clear. I was saying I agreed with **NurseCarmen’s** original statement in post 37 As well as the first part of her later post), but I was disappointed to see her follow it with, > [@](#): > > …But ignorance into how the rest of the world sees this conflict and an unflinching defense of America’s intentions isn’t going to help ourselves. I would venture to say that this administration’s continued stubborness to admit any wrongdoing has only buried us deeper. An enlightened and diplomatic approach will help get our boys and girls home safe, > > Instead this administration remains in denial, buries it’s head further into the sand that it has pounded up it’s ass, moves the goal posts, puts an asshole into the UN when we could use their help, and is exposed more daily as a bad actor. It’s no wonder that there is no pressure for the surrounding countries and communities, the ones who actually have some power to turn opinion inside Iraq to help out. They have no reason to. The ‘My Country right or wrong’ bullshit that is coming out of this administration and it’s supporters is only working to kill more of our soldiers. Aren’t the terrorists just plain wrong? Why is it so often, "I don’t agree with the terrotists, but…, and then the criticism of the U.S. Fuck the terrorist scum. They’re just a bunch of animals. Period. If that was unclear, my apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Ithaka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Ithaka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ithaka)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/151 "2005-08-03T22:26:08Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Good thing you put this thread in the Pit, Dribble, since that permits me to point out that you are truly an ignorant jerk and are just parading your hatred of America here with a thin, nay, invisible disguise. Is there any chance we can bury this? While I may not agree with every point MrDibble is making, cannot we agree that disagreeing with our governments’ and militaries’ policies (yup, my government’s involved as well) in Iraq does not equate with “hatred of America”. I love my country and my city (the one that goy bombed recently) but I can still think that we’ve fucked up royally in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/152 "2005-08-03T22:26:32Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I know this isn’t my question but I’ll take a stab at it. > > Admit we fucked up royally, ask the worlds help, and either way we’re getting the fuck out. Yep that’s right I said it, leave them twisting in the wind and pull out. > > The question is will Americans be better off or worse? > > After we wipe the egg off our face, I say in the long run we’ll be better. I meant the question for you as well. Just forgot to type it. My brain no worky well when hot hot. I live in Northern Michigan fercrissake. Not supposed to be 100 degrees round here. I don’t think we get to just pull out and leave them twisting in the wind. For starters, it’d make Bush right about Iraq being a haven for terrorists. Nobody wants that. We’d also be leaving the Iraqis in worse straights than they were under Saddam Hussein. That’s a bad thing. We broke the damn country, so we bought it. We’ve gotta fix it or make one hell of an attempt before we drop them. I will say that I understand your point of view. I don’t agree with it, but I can respect it. That’s more than I can say for you **MrDibble**. You’re coming across as a ghoul and an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/153 "2005-08-03T22:35:31Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > I meant the question for you as well. Just forgot to type it. My brain no worky well when hot hot. I live in Northern Michigan fercrissake. Not supposed to be 100 degrees round here. > [@](#): > > I don’t think we get to just pull out and leave them twisting in the wind. For starters, it’d make Bush right about Iraq being a haven for terrorists. Iraq became a haven for terrorists _after_ we invaded it. It seems to be festering even more with our continued presence. > [@](#): > > Nobody wants that. We’d also be leaving the Iraqis in worse straights than they were under Saddam Hussein. I’d agree, but from the American point of view, pulling out would be better then staying. > [@](#): > > That’s a bad thing. We broke the damn country, so we bought it. We’ve gotta fix it or make one hell of an attempt before we drop them. From an overall damage perspective I have more confidence in us pulling out, then our attempt to “fix” them. Damage will be done either way, don’t get me wrong. > [@](#): > > I will say that I understand your point of view. I don’t agree with it, but I can respect it. Back 'atcha big guy. 🙂 That’s more than I can say for you **MrDibble**. You’re coming across as a ghoul and an idiot. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/154 "2005-08-03T22:36:47Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > I meant the question for you as well. Just forgot to type it. My brain no worky well when hot hot. I live in Northern Michigan fercrissake. Not supposed to be 100 degrees round here. hmmmm, don’t know why that didn’t post, but I was saying it’s been hot as hell in Brooklyn as well. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/155 "2005-08-03T22:39:53Z")
Alright my post was totally screwed. Ignore that last part about scribble, that was not my post. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/156 "2005-08-03T23:14:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Aren’t the terrorists just plain wrong? Why is it so often, "I don’t agree with the terrotists, but…, and then the criticism of the U.S. Fuck the terrorist scum. They’re just a bunch of animals. Period. As I made clear in post #37, I don’t agree with the terrorists. That’s pretty fucking clear, eh? But in your pretty world view of flowers and bad guys, there is an either/or choice. Fuck that. I’m here in reality. The terrorists are fucking scum and are killing children. Just because I think that doesn’t preclude me from seeing that this administration has fucked things up at every step. There’s also an in between area of Iraqi’s that are fighting what they see as a foreign occupation who are fighting the soldiers of that occupation, and not targeting civilians. Do you consider those Iraqi’s _terrorists_ simply because they our targeting the soldiers of our side? Can your black and white world view manage to see that some might not see them as terrorists? And that it is exactly that group who we should be changing our tactics with? If we can get some sort of peace with them, it’ll be the first steps to chasing out the foreign elements and lessening the wahabist’s influence. Shit, as it stands, we still are having the god damn _Shiites_ taking pot shots at us. If that isn’t a sign that wev’e fucked things up, I don’t know what is. The only thing that would be a worse sign is if the Kurds turned on us, which could happen with the ham handed manner in which this administration is handeling things. When you are in a hole, stop digging. If you can’t stop digging, at least change your direction. I do not revel in any U.S. casualties. Shit, the longer it goes on the better chance my buddies go over there. They’ve been lucky so far. Any if your reading comprehension is up to snuff, you’ll see that one of my main complaints is that this administration’s ineptitude is _causing_ more troop deaths. And I am pissed as hell that they keep on trying the same damn thing. They’re pretty slow on their comprehension too. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/157 "2005-08-03T23:58:46Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > Do you consider those Iraqi’s _terrorists_ simply because they our targeting the soldiers of our side? Can your black and white world view manage to see that some might not see them as terrorists? I see them as terrorists because they target non-combatants as a matter of policy and strategy. I see them as terrorists because they have targetted children and beheaded captives–and \*bragged \* about it. I see them as terrorists because their goals and tactics fail to meet any of the rules of war as defined by civilized peoples. They are, basically, a gaggle of violent religious fanatics and gangsters who respect no standard of civilized behavior whatsoever. There is no other side to this conflict. There is no justice or honor whatsoever in their cause, and allowing the terrorists in Iraq to win would be a catastrophe not only for the United States and the Middle East but the entire world. I don’t care that “others might not see them as terrorists.” There are still assholes around who think Stalin was a real cool dude, and that point of view doesn’t deserve respect or serious consideration either. This really is a black or white issue. There aren’t any gray areas here. The moral choice is very clear. If you have any sense of decency whatsoever, you will support the Coalition. Because only a fool or a monster wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/158 "2005-08-04T00:59:35Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Alright my post was totally screwed. Ignore that last part about scribble, that was not my post. Told ya. It’s the heat. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/159 "2005-08-04T01:16:06Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > This really is a black or white issue. There aren’t any gray areas here. The moral choice is very clear. If you have any sense of decency whatsoever, you will support the Coalition. > > Because only a fool or a monster wouldn’t. Too effen’ bad. Fortunately for me and the great majority of the world, we don’t take our marching orders from brainless twats such as yourself – or your Clueless Misleader for that matter. Go ahead, invade us all. I dare you. * * * > [@NurseCarmen](#): > > As I made clear in post #37, I don’t agree with the terrorists. That’s pretty fucking clear, eh? But in your pretty world view of flowers and bad guys, there is an either/or choice. Fuck that. I’m here in reality. The terrorists are fucking scum and are killing children. Just because I think that doesn’t preclude me from seeing that this administration has fucked things up at every step. There’s also an in between area of Iraqi’s that are fighting what they see as a foreign occupation who are fighting the soldiers of that occupation, and not targeting civilians. Do you consider those Iraqi’s terrorists simply because they our targeting the soldiers of our side? Can your black and white world view manage to see that some might not see them as terrorists? That’s two damn “amen’s” you’ve got out of this heathen in on day. Stop it will ya? At this rate I might end up in church. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406/160 "2005-08-04T01:34:33Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > I see them as terrorists because they target non-combatants as a matter of policy and strategy. I see them as terrorists because they have targetted children and beheaded captives–and \*bragged \* about it. I see them as terrorists because their goals and tactics fail to meet any of the rules of war as defined by civilized peoples. They are, basically, a gaggle of violent religious fanatics and gangsters who respect no standard of civilized behavior whatsoever. Read much? As an assignment, I’ll have you go back and reread my post. You will be assigned a grade. You _do_ realize that we are fighting more than group over there, don’t you? Or does that not fit into your tidy little us/them world? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-related-am-i-the-only-one/315406.md?page=9)