# Iraq: Should the troops be withdrawn or drastically increased? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2007, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165 "2007-04-08T06:22:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2007, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/121 "2007-04-10T17:08:33Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] I know, I know, but a man’s dreams for a better future for humanity is the last thing that can be taken from him. If at all. Because I plan on taking mine to the grave. Martin Luther King, JFK, Bobby, Gandhi, etc…not bad company to keep. [/QUOTE] Don’t forget that that company, so defined, also includes Mohammed, Lenin, Mao and Hitler. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2007, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/122 "2007-04-10T17:19:49Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Don’t forget that that company, so defined, also includes Mohammed, Lenin, Mao and Hitler. 😉 [/QUOTE] Yeah but my definition for a “better future for humanity” doesn’t happen to include genocide. 😉 Well, kids, off to Madrid in a few hours. Taking my laptop but doubt I’ll be posting as much – got a ton of things to do over there. Both work-wise and just plain fun. Later! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2007, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/123 "2007-04-10T17:21:35Z")
[QUOTE=Banquet Bear] I find myself asking the question: if the US pulls troops out right now, what hope does a home in Baghdad have of gettng power 24 hours a day? Who will fix the water supply? How is Iraq going to get fixed? [/quote] All of that will get done – **after** a civil war is waged and everything settles out into a new power structure, possibly one involving three separate states. It can’t be avoided, so it’s best to get it over with. Soonest begun is soonest done. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2007, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/124 "2007-04-10T17:25:27Z")
Have they been warned? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2007, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/125 "2007-04-10T17:41:45Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Peatreus was a fine choice because he was willing to go along with the surge. The generals who did not were broomed. The surge is about time. If they can find a way to hang on to elections and keep saying all is well ,they will have a chance in the elections. If they have to withdraw they will get creamed in the next elections. Maybe someone else will save them. Perhaps one of the local leaders will gather power and push out the fighters. All hope has to do with staying until the vote. [/QUOTE] 😕 Who’s “they”? ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/126 "2007-04-10T17:42:18Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Well, kids, off to Madrid in a few hours. Taking my laptop but doubt I’ll be posting as much – got a ton of things to do over there. Both work-wise and just plain fun. Later! [/QUOTE] [hijack] Enjoy Madrid. It’s a lovely city. Not as nice as Barcelona, IMO, but very nice none the less and the weather should be stunning. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2007, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/127 "2007-04-10T17:57:22Z")
Why does this thread turn into a bitch slapping contest as soon as someone opens their mouths of how the War effort could actually be doing some good,bad,whatever? > [@](#): > > And since Sam doesn’t seem o care much, if at all where his cites come from, as long as they agree with his bullheaded views, I’ll make use of said disdain and post part of one of the latests entries from my favorite, Baghdad blogger, Riverbend: And since RedFury doesn’t seem o care much, if at all where his cites come from, as long as they agree with his bullheaded views, I’ll make use of said disdain and post part of one of the latests entries from my favorite, Baghdad blogger, IraqTheModel: > [@](#): > > **IraqTheModel** > \*Yesterday passed peacefully, that’s without any major incident recorded anywhere in the country. > I think it was a good decision to have an extended curfew, it prevented the clowns from organizing demonstrations in Baghdad, otherwise bad things would’ve been very difficult to avoid. > > The situation in Diwaniya has calmed down a little bit and most militiamen are off the street, reportedly after receiving orders from Moqtada. > This didn’t mean the operation has ended and the troops are still conducting house to house searches. > > Sadr’s militias always employ the “hide your weapons” approach to end the crises they start each time they are confronted with overwhelming force from the US and Iraqi military. I can’t say for sure what good that does to them in the long run, one simply can’t read a mind like Moqtada’s but perhaps it’s one of their PR stunts that are for domestic consumption, to show that their will to build peace is what ends the fighting and that they withdraw from the streets not out of fear from the troops but because they’re doing it for the best of the people. > It’s always “we’ll get our weapons off the streets” maneuver—the half solution that relieves pressure and allows them to keep their force for future mischief. > > Anyway, this might not work our perfectly for them this time in Diwaniya because the troops entered the city with the intent to strike the militia hard and capture its leaders. > A relative who lives there with whom I spoke on the phone last night said the troops are conducting raids on specific targets, aimed at capturing elements identified on a wanted list. > > The commander of the 8th IA division in charge of the area was obviously suspicious of the demonstrations organized by the Sadrists in nearby Najaf (about 50km to the west) and he realized that demonstrators would possibly become reinforcements to the militiamen his soldiers are fighting so he made clear last night on TV that no marchers from other cities would be allowed to enter Diwaniya. > > Speaking of the Sadrists’ pitiful demonstrations. His aides were hoping to gather a million marchers for yesterday but all they could manage were less than ten thousands, that’s even when they bussed people from Baghdad and Basra. > The Arabic-speaking al-Alam Iranian channel claims the number was “hundreds of thousands” but that’s just al-Alam, other channels and the footage we saw all put the number between 5 and 10 thousand. > I had personally been to a demonstration of 10 thousands once and what I saw yesterday was definitely smaller. > > Flying Iraqi flags in large numbers is another exposed cheap trick combining methods from both Hezbollah and Saddam. > Replacing partisan sectarian banners with the national flag was likely inspired from Hezbollah’s rallies in Lebanon. Both movements desperately try to show themselves as patriotic movements because they realize the others see them as Iran’s tools. > > On the other hand the way the flags were gathered is a trademark of the Ba’ath work; the flags that were carried during the demonstration as well as the flags that were seen hanging on walls in Baghdad were not donated by NGO’s, nor bought with Sadr’s money. > Elements of the Mehdi army paid visits to hundreds of shops and stores in several neighborhoods in Baghdad and “asked” the owners for money to buy flags; 6,000 dinars ($5) from stores on main streets and 2,000 dinars from stores in the alleys. This is exactly what the Ba’ath thugs used to do; using intimidation to steal hard-earned money from hardworking Iraqis to decorate their false demonstrations with posters and portraits. > > That’s all I have for now. Will make an update if I find more about what’s going on\* If US withdraws from Iraq, the Sunnis will be defeated, that’s a given, however, what’s not a given is the country immediately becoming a theocratic Iran style state. There’s too much division for that kind of ideology to be imposed over everyone on the country. > [@](#): > > All of that will get done – after a civil war is waged and everything settles out into a new power structure, possibly one involving three separate states. > > It can’t be avoided, so it’s best to get it over with. Soonest begun is soonest done. Uh-huh, tell that to the Afghans mate. > [@](#): > > And, frankly, speaking strictly as an amatuer, this whole enclave thing sounds rather suspect. Is the idea to offer Custer Clusters of American/Iraqi troops, to be surrounded in potentially hostile territory? I suppose that has some “hearts and minds” potential. Enclave sounds rather Vienamish, don’t you think? Enclave plans usually are where there is a major base which doesn’t interact with the host population, in the ‘Surge’ this is exactly the opposite. Besides, you can’t win hearts and minds whilst fortifying yourself in remote bases, you have to actually show the population you’re willing to take a risk and make sure such areas they’re placed in are secure. It’s confidence building. Why would a resident risk their lives for someone who only comes round patrolling every other day of the week? > [@](#): > > But what happens if they get in trouble? Is the plan, God forbid, to respond with air power, which so regretably non-specific. So Air power is now defunct, even without accurate and specific intelligence to seek out people they’re wanting to take out? > [@](#): > > Seems to be a plan that will work fine so long as there is no serious resistance. But if there is, then a civilian residential area becomes a free-fire zone and a lot of folks get dead. Ours, the enemy, and lots of those indigenous shrapnel absorption units. That’s the risk you have too take, but you’ll looking at it too one dimensionally, pacification is a combination of political, military and economic strategies to ensure the area is peaceful and secure. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2007, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/128 "2007-04-10T18:14:28Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Uh-huh, tell that to the Afghans mate. [/QUOTE] We haven’t pulled out of Afghanistan either. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2007, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/129 "2007-04-10T21:00:29Z")
> [@](#): > > We haven’t pulled out of Afghanistan either. What’s your point? I’m talking about the Russian experience. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2007, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/130 "2007-04-10T22:27:35Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Given that currently the ‘surge’ seems to be having positive effects, doesn’t it seem smart to at least wait and see if it works? [/QUOTE] Because they say there are positive effects,does not make it so. ---
**Author:** ![rhettro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@rhettro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhettro)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2007, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/131 "2007-04-10T23:48:11Z")
We can have a troop surge, stay for 10 years, and watch the government fall to civil war, or we can pull out now and watch the government fall to civil war. Seems we’d loose less money and American lives if we left now. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/132 "2007-04-11T01:04:51Z")
According to the admittedly crude measures of [Iraq Coalition Casualties](http://icasualties.org/oif/IraqiDeaths.aspx), _civilian_ casualties in Iraq this March were pretty much the equal of any month over the past couple of years, excepting last August and September. (March deaths of 1674; other than last August and September, no month with more than 1741 recorded deaths.) Due to the crudeness of the measure (like Iraq Body Count, it relies on reports in the international press, and is subject to the same weaknesses - but I couldn’t find monthly totals on IBC), that doesn’t mean the ‘surge’ is failing. But if one claims the evidence shows the surge is working, one must come up with evidence at least that good in support of the proposition. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/133 "2007-04-11T01:14:13Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] I’m talking about the Russian experience. [/QUOTE] Again, what’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/134 "2007-04-11T17:18:37Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 😕 Who’s “they”? [/QUOTE] The socialist party. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/135 "2007-04-11T19:21:49Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Again, what’s your point? [/QUOTE] They left, and the war with the Muhajadeen dragged on, pretty much destroying any institutions the Afghan Government had. Civil wars sometimes don’t come to conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/136 "2007-04-12T04:03:30Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] They left, and the war with the Muhajadeen dragged on, pretty much destroying any institutions the Afghan Government had. Civil wars sometimes don’t come to conclusions. [/QUOTE] How was The Taliban NOT a ‘conclusion’? That they harbored AQ and they were fundamentalists does NOT in any way mean that it wasn’t one. Af course the fact that you (and we) ended-up going to war against, again, does not detract from their legitimacy. And it is also sad commentary that we haven’t done too well there either – the forgotten war so-to-speak. * * * \Muchas gracias, **Gomi-Boy**. Great trip. Weather awesone, it even stop raining to welcome me. It’s ‘bout six in the morning and its full tilt ahead likely for the rest of the day. But I’m lovin’ it. It’ll always feel like home to me – in fact partly the reason why I’m here, putting the finishing touches on an apartment I share with my sis we just got done totally remodeling\ ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/137 "2007-04-12T08:26:40Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] \Muchas gracias, **Gomi-Boy**. Great trip. Weather awesone, it even stop raining to welcome me. It’s ‘bout six in the morning and its full tilt ahead likely for the rest of the day. But I’m lovin’ it. It’ll always feel like home to me – in fact partly the reason why I’m here, putting the finishing touches on an apartment I share with my sis we just got done totally remodeling\ [/QUOTE] De nada amigo, adios y buenas dias. (Or for the non-Spanish speaking - It’s nothing, friend, goodbye and good day 🆒 ) /hijack ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2007, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/138 "2007-04-13T20:21:58Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] The socialist party. [/QUOTE] 😕 There’s one in Iraq that matters? Or in the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/139 "2007-04-13T20:52:35Z")
> [@](#): > > How was The Taliban NOT a ‘conclusion’? That they harbored AQ and they were fundamentalists does NOT in any way mean that it wasn’t one. They didn’t completely defeat the Northern Alliance, headed by Massoud, who was assasinated by Al Queda or the Taliban, I can’t remember. The fact is the war after the Soviets left isn’t completely over. It simmered for a while in the 90’s and came back into the fold after 9/11. So BrainGluttons hypothesis is incorrect. > [@](#): > > Af course the fact that you (and we) ended-up going to war against, again, does not detract from their legitimacy. And it is also sad commentary that we haven’t done too well there either – the forgotten war so-to-speak. They weren’t legitimate to start from, those ‘indigenous Talibs’ were in fact trained and propped up by the ISI across the border into Pakistan. It was a murderous, woman suppressing, violent Islamist racist thuggish government which I’m very happy we’re trying to defeat and get rid of in Afghanistan. I think the ethnic Hazaras will be very happy since the Taliban massacred them and countless others. Good riddance to them. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2007, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165/140 "2007-04-13T23:15:24Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] They weren’t legitimate to start from, those ‘indigenous Talibs’ were in fact trained and propped up by the ISI across the border into Pakistan. [/QUOTE] Nicely said and not said enough - the Taliban was never the legitimate government of Afghanistan… It appears the concept of a ‘buffer state’ is still thoroughly alive and well in the ME. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-should-the-troops-be-withdrawn-or-drastically-increased/399165.md?page=8)