# "Iraq supplied al-Qaeda with WMDs" -- Does this report justify the war? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072 "2003-08-09T19:59:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/41 "2003-08-10T02:50:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*Why is this quote inconsistent with a belief that al-Qaeda has been aided by Iraq? And if the report in the OP is proven accurate, why would this be considered ex post facto justification (as some in this thread contend), given the administration’s contention, prior to the war, that Iraq aided and abetted al-Qaeda? > > You might recall this assertion, since it was treated with such derision on this very board. If the pre-war intelligence told of an Iraq-al Qaeda connection, and now one is shown to exist, this will be ex post facto why? \*\* Adding to what, **tom** already said, I think the quote speaks for itself. If you’ll concede that Wolfowitz was one of the major architech’s of the Iraq invasion, and further, that [this had been in the works for quite sometime](http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm), I find the statement highly revealing. In essence, he is saying that the US knew jack\* about Iraq’s involvement _prior to the invasion_. Which is exactly what they/you presented as “evidence” for the rest of the world to see. This whole thing reminds me of [**Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon**](http://www-distance.syr.edu/bacon.html). But people don’t die in the game version. Trust that answers your question. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/42 "2003-08-10T02:57:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*Why is this quote inconsistent with a belief that al-Qaeda has been aided by Iraq? And if the report in the OP is proven accurate, why would this be considered ex post facto justification (as some in this thread contend), given the administration’s contention, prior to the war, that Iraq aided and abetted al-Qaeda? > > You might recall this assertion, since it was treated with such derision on this very board. If the pre-war intelligence told of an Iraq-al Qaeda connection, and now one is shown to exist, this will be ex post facto why? \*\* Adding to what, **tom** already said, I think the quote speaks for itself. If you’ll concede that Wolfowitz was one of the major architech’s of the Iraq invasion, and further, that [this had been in the works for quite sometime](http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm), I find the statement highly revealing. In essence, he is saying that the US knew jack\* about Iraq’s involvement _prior to the invasion_. Which is exactly what they/you presented as “evidence” for the rest of the world to see. This whole Saddam/OBL thing reminds me of [**Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon**](http://www-distance.syr.edu/bacon.html). Except that people don’t die in the game version. Trust that answers your question. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/43 "2003-08-10T02:59:19Z")
Blame the hamsters for the echo! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/44 "2003-08-10T03:14:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monty2\_2001 \* > LOL, the UN sat on its hands for years while Iraq did whatever it wanted, and wasn’t going to do jack about the current situation either. > > This report is a huge steaming pile of crow that the left is having to eat now. > > Now, the left is going ‘it doesn’t matter if there were WMD’s, blah blah’ > > Pathetic. Oh dear. 1. You stated previously: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monty2\_2001 \* > Leftists hate Bush and America so damn bad that they put saddam and even al qaeda on a pedistal. I asked for a cite. The idea of this board is to fight ignorance (that includes ludicrous unsupported allegations). Please make an effort to do so. 1. I asked you: Do you know who put Saddam in charge in Iraq? Do you know where he got his weapons of mass destruction from? Presumably you are ignorant that the answers are ‘the CIA’ and ‘Donald Rumsfeld, on behalf of the previous Bush administration’ respectively. Does this information matter to you? (Note that the UN previously passed resolutions deploring Saddam - the previous Bush Administration both put him in power and armed him.) Yes, the UN would not back the immediate invasion of Iraq, because there was doubt that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction (especially ones ready to use in 45 minutes, plus a nuclear link, supplied from Africa). Since the US took control of the country, months have passed without any WMD being found. The African plutonium documents have been exposed as forgeries. Does this bother you at all? And of course it is the Bush Administration who are saying ‘it doesn’t matter if there were WMDs - the War was justified anyway’. Does this mean you think that Bush is left-wing? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/45 "2003-08-10T03:32:24Z")
BTW is the “special report” pathetic or what? It seems to be mainly a series of talking points with very little in the way of detail or context. Can’t the administration do a proper report with historical background,detailed statistics, analysis of the problems, specific targets and estimates of the resource needed to meet those targets? It’s better to release nothing rather than this junk. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/46 "2003-08-10T03:40:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, according to State Department reports, terrorist groups the Iranian Mujahedin-e-Khalq and the Abu Nidal organization were protected by the Iraqi regime protected by the Iraqi regime. Boy, talk about lying! Mujahedin-e-Khalq were mostly inactive, but their only target was Iran (one our “bad” guys) and, as soon as we got into Northeast Iraq, we recruited them to join us (after a token disarmament). According to the U.S. (in other documents), Abu Nidal had forsworn terror by the mid-1990s and their last actual action was an assassination in Jordan of someone they considered to have betrayed them (_i.e._, internecine gang warfare, not a terrorist act against another country). So, we are taking credit for having “stopped” one group by simply recruiting them to work for us and for another group that has been retired for ten years. ---
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/47 "2003-08-10T03:47:04Z")
I realize that it is a waste of my time to argue with the White House’s oft-repeated rationale for war, as others have done so far more effectively at far better times. That said, I’m a freaking masochist: > [@](#): > > **1. With the fall of Saddam Hussein’s regime, Iraq is no longer a state sponsor of terror. According to State Department reports on terrorism, before the removal of Saddam’s regime, Iraq was one of seven state sponsors of terror.** x[sup]2[/sup] + y[sup]2[/sup] = r[sup]2[/sup] Two and three do not merit a response, except to say that the NBC weapons issue has been dealt with at length by many ([myself included](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=196262)), and that three sent my irony meter off the scale. **4 - 6: Iraq was working with Al-Qaa:ada:** [I will be convinced that these allegations are accurate and significant when our intelligence agencies are convinced of the same.](http://bernie.house.gov/documents/articles/20030206100505.asp) **6 - 8: Ansar al-Islam, Zarqawi, ricin, et cetera:** If the White House truly does not understand that pre-war Iraqi Kurdistan was not under Baghdad’s control, I am going to cry. I would also note that “Law enforcement and intelligence operations have disrupted al Qaida associate Abu Musab Zarqawi’s poison plotting in France, Britain, Spain, Italy, Germany, and Russia” held true before the Bush Administration did everything in its power to royally piss off the law enforcement and intelligence agencies of such nations. Ironically, France and Germany were perhaps our two most useful allies in operations again Al-Qaa:ada prior to the Iraq war. Sadly, uch cooperation was clearly not helped by the White House’s approach to that damned fool war. **9: Zarqawi was involved in the Foley assassination:** This is truly unfortunate, but where the hell is the evidence that Zarqawi was working with Saddam Hussain? On preview, I see that **tomndebb** has saved me the trouble of dealing with the MKO BS. Thanks, **tom**. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/48 "2003-08-10T03:47:18Z")
Note that in point 6, they talk about disrupting the training camp at Sagrat–carefully omitting that no documents linking it to Iraq were found and that it was able to operate because the U.S. was keeping the Iraqi Army out of the region, then, in point 8, they talk about how Zarqawi had been producing poison weapons “before the war”–carefully not mentioning that the same site, Sagrat, mentioned in point 6 has no chemical or biological weapons associated with it. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/49 "2003-08-10T03:48:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*Boy, talk about [the US State Dept.] lying! … > > According to the U.S. (in other documents), Abu Nidal had forsworn terror by the mid-1990s… \*\* We know our State Department was lying because they contradicted by terrorist Abu Nidal – an impeccable source! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/50 "2003-08-10T03:49:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CarnalK \* > \*\*Wow, I was going to give them the benefit of the doubt except for the last paragraph which shows it has at least been edited since May. > > The byline says “From correspondents in Crawford, Texas” which I assume means someone hanging around the ranch. > > What does it all mean? 😉 \*\* What it means is the conservative controlled media in the US and in other countries are fabricating the news for political reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/51 "2003-08-10T03:49:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, according to State Department reports, terrorist groups the Iranian Mujahedin-e-Khalq and the Abu Nidal organization were **protected by the Iraqi regime protected by the Iraqi regime.** I like the bolded bit. These fucking idiots can’t even write a sentence that’s _grammatically_ correct, let alone _factually_ correct. ---
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/52 "2003-08-10T04:05:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > \*\*Oh dear. > > 1. I asked you: > > Do you know who put Saddam in charge in Iraq? > Do you know where he got his weapons of mass destruction from? > > Presumably you are ignorant that the answers are ‘the CIA’ and ‘Donald Rumsfeld, on behalf of the previous Bush administration’ respectively. > Does this information matter to you? > (Note that the UN previously passed resolutions deploring Saddam - the previous Bush Administration both put him in power and armed him.) > \*\* Not true. While the Reagan Administration most likely gave tacit support to Iraqi use of NBC weapons during the Iran-Iraq War, there is absolutely no evidence that the United States ever supplied Baghdad with such weapons. Indeed, Iraq has never possessed many US-made weapons of any kind. All the evidence that I am aware of indicates that Iraqi NBC weapons were either indigenous or were largely acquired from the USSR and (in the case of the nuclear program), various sources in Western Europe. The closest link one can make between the United States and Iraqi unconventional weapons programs would be that Baghdad ordered commercially-available bacteria from a private supplier in the US in the 1980s, if I recall correctly. The Central Intelligence Agency had absolutely nothing to do with either the 1969 Ba’ath Party coup or Saddam’s own 1979 bloodbath, and I have never encountered any evidence to the contrary. The Ba’ath Party was far friendlier with the Soviet Union than the United States, and prior to 1979 our Twin Pillars in the region were Saudi Arabia and Iran (Iraq’s enemy, obviously). The US did not begin its “tilt” towards Baghdad until the advent Iran-Iraq War. ---
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/53 "2003-08-10T04:08:38Z")
Erm, there’s no evidence the CIA had anything to do with the 196 **8** Ba’ath coup, either. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/54 "2003-08-10T04:18:46Z")
> [@](#): > > We know our State Department was lying because they contradicted by terrorist Abu Nidal – an impeccable source! No. We know that our administration was lying because reports from the State Department and the CIA prior to the administration’s re-writing of history indicated that he had retired. For example, this official U.S. site notes his lack of activity: [http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/abu.htm](http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/abu.htm) ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/55 "2003-08-10T04:26:48Z")
“there is absolutely no evidence that the United States ever supplied Baghdad with such weapons” The CDC sent several samples of germs to Iraq in the 80’s including botulinum toxin. [http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-09-30-iraq-ushelp\_x.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-09-30-iraq-ushelp_x.htm) There is another story linked in the second paragraph with more details. Iraq claimed that the samples were needed for public health purposes but as the weapons inspector ,who is quoted, says this was pretty naive to believe even at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/56 "2003-08-10T04:32:38Z")
I stand corrected, **CyberPundit** ; thank you. I believe that this is the same incident I remembered as Iraq receiving bacteria specimens from a private US supplier, but my memory is clearly off if I confused a private supplier with the CDC. Thanks again for setting me straight. Nevertheless, I maintain that any assertion that the US was responsible for Iraq’s unconventional weapons program (at least to any significant degree), or for the rise of Saddam Hussain, is completely unsupported by the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/57 "2003-08-10T04:59:48Z")
I might be hijacking the thread… but its curious that people are still looking for justification for the war NOW. Justification should have been provided BEFORE not AFTER. (Taking down Saddam is not justification in itself thou… not for an occupation.) Another thing is the debate about bad intelligence on Iraqi capabilities and true WMD program. News magazines and analysts talk about it as if Bush had made a hasty decision based on bad information… when it was in fact a decision that was backed by ANY information that fit. Iraq was the target and the justification had to be made up anyway they could… intelligence was selected in order to fit the chosen scenario not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/58 "2003-08-10T04:59:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*We know our State Department was lying because they contradicted by terrorist Abu Nidal – an impeccable source! :dubious: \*\* > [@](#): > > Originally posted by tomndebb > \*\*For example, this official U.S. site notes his lack of activity: > [http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/abu.htm](http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/abu.htm) \*\* This lack of activity may have something to do with his being [dead](http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Nidal). > [@](#): > > On August 19, 2002 he was reported dead of gunshot wounds in his home in Baghdad. He was suffering from leukemia, and the Iraqi government has said he was also facing a charge of treason and was likely to be convicted. The cause of his death according to Iraq’s foreign minister Tariq Aziz was a self-inflicted gunshot wound. The London paper Al-Sharq al-Awsat states that there were in fact multiple gunshots and the death was a homicide carried out by Iraqi intelligence agents. Doesn’t sound like he was much of a threat, being dead and all, nor does it sound like he was being harboured by Iraq, especially seeing as how they killed him. So for GWB to include that as one of the “10 Ways the Liberation of Iraq Supports the War on Terror” shows some pretty fucking strange logic, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/59 "2003-08-10T05:01:57Z")
“my memory is clearly off if I confused a private supplier with the CDC.” Your memory isn’t necessarily off; as the article mentions there was a company called the ATCC which also supplied samples along with the CDC. As for the rest I guess it depends on what you mean by “responsible”. It’s quite possible that some US officials knew that the samples would help the Iraqi bio-weapons efforts but turned a blind eye because Iraq was then an ally. It’s hard to prove one way or another. About the links between CIA and Saddam here is an interesting UPI article though there are conflicting statements about whether the CIA was behind the 1963 Baath Party coup. [http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2849.htm](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2849.htm) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072/60 "2003-08-10T05:42:32Z")
> [@](#): > > This lack of activity may have something to do with his being dead. Abu Nidal died in 2002. The last time that the U.S. intelligence _suspected_ his group of an attack was in Jordan in 1994. The last time the U.S. intelligence confirmed an attack was in 1991 (against the PLO). And the last time that any attack was carried out against people _other than_ PLO enemies or suspected Arab enemies was in the late 1980s. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-supplied-al-qaeda-with-wmds-does-this-report-justify-the-war/194072.md?page=4)