# Iraq: The UK Sends the Ark Royal (RN Flagship). This is not a good sign... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 5, 2002, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436 "2002-08-05T14:13:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/41 "2002-08-09T06:20:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by plnnr \* > \*\*The Germans Chancellor, today, spoke out againt any action with regard to Irag pending a more detailed discussion of why any action at all is needed. \*\* I’m not exactly for invasion of any foreign country at this point, but I do think we should get this knucklehead out of office as diplomatically as possible. I submit to you my personal take on the situation: We think he’s developing nuclear weapons. We know he’s got chemical and some biological ones. We also think he’s got a long-range ballistic missile program going. We know he’s got a tactical range capability, along with some strategic range. We know he hates the US. What we don’t know is who he’s harboring, that also hates the US. I’d sure as hell like to know what he’s got, and whether or not he’s giving this information to tomorrow’s Osama bin Laden or Mohammed Atta. Wouldn’t you? I also didn’t like being woken up frickin’ early in the morning for a Scud launch alert. Tripler And that’s why I don’t like Hussein a whole lot. ---
**Author:** ![Sebhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@Sebhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sebhal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/42 "2002-08-09T12:18:00Z")
> [@](#): > > A comprehensive Strategic Defense Review was completed by the Labor government in March 1988 that resulted in a major revision in Britain’s strategic nuclear posture in July. Effective immediately all WE177 bombs were removed from service, and all of them (175 WE 177 A and B bombs - with yields of 200 and 400 kt) were dismantled by the end of August. This left only a single nuclear weapon system in service - the Trident submarine. I find myself asking, though, should we really be trusting a site that doesn’t realise that Britain had a Conservative government in 1988? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/43 "2002-08-09T13:24:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tripler \* > \*\* > I also didn’t like being woken up frickin’ early in the morning for a Scud launch alert. > \*\* Where is UTM? ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/44 "2002-08-09T17:00:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by carnivorousplant \* > \*\* > > Where is UTM? \*\* UTM stands for Universal Transverse Mercator. It’s a coordinates system, not a place. . . Tripler The current, listed point is where I am now. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/45 "2002-08-09T17:08:56Z")
Let me rephrase my question: Where are you that Scud alerts will wake you up? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/46 "2002-08-09T18:00:44Z")
5490041N is about N49º 30’ which is in Canada, an unlikely target for Scuds. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/47 "2002-08-09T18:06:45Z")
[Canada’s Geodetic Survey Division Conversion between UTM and Geographic coordinates](http://www.geod.nrcan.gc.ca/index_e/online_apps_e/online_appsredirect_e.html) ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2002, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/48 "2002-08-11T03:55:20Z")
Beyond hardware issues the presence of the British in a possible attack on Iraq will be immensely valuable in an international context so that we don’t give the impression of acting completely unilaterally. Saddam is not biding his time. He is a malevolent and extremely dangerous enemy if cornered, that will strike with whatever he can get his hands on. The rest of the world can adopt a sophisticated pose and hope Saddam goes away but the US cannot afford this luxury given the weapons he is developing and their potential for harm. The historical track record for ignoring dictators and hoping they will go away or stop at someone else’s border has not been particularly promising to date. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2002, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/49 "2002-08-11T07:31:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Attrayant \* > \*\*I always wondered what became of the Village People. \*\* They’re in the Navy. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/50 "2002-08-12T04:02:32Z")
Canada would be there too. In fact, now that we’ve got an ‘axis’, I think Canada, Britain, and the U.S. should start calling themselves “The Allies”. (-: ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/51 "2002-08-12T10:20:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astro \* > Beyond hardware issues the presence of the British in a possible attack on Iraq will be immensely valuable in an international context so that we don’t give the impression of acting completely unilaterally. Yeah, I can just imagine the multilateral meeting to draw up any military plans… Bush: " No, please speak up Tony, I’d really like your input on this one…" Blair: " Well, your plans seems fine Mr Bush" Bush: " Mr Creature? How do you feel on this one?" JC: " Well, they seem fine, but just to clear up one thing, will the exultations of Candian troops be released in French too?" The Sun screams Blair Wins Battle with Bush over Tactics Our Boys to Spearhead Amphibious, Air, Parachute, Land and Special Forces Assaults Bush says “Thank God you guys are on our side” ---
**Author:** ![d12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71c47a/32.png) [@d12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/d12)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/52 "2002-08-13T05:37:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah, I can just imagine the multilateral meeting to draw up any military plans… Somehow it wouldn’t suprise me if the good ol’ Johnny decided to send the boys out (who JUST got back from the Afghan tour) for another round and why? Because Bush told him he might win another election in doing so. To the OP: Sending one ship doesn’t mean too much, it’s when you send out a fleet. Someone posted about carriers with Seakings? You might want a refund or something to get them to fly (more of a Canadian joke unless it’s happened elsewhere too.) My $0.01 cdn. d12 ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/53 "2002-08-13T07:11:53Z")
> [@](#): > > To the OP: Sending one ship doesn’t mean too much, it’s when you send out a fleet. I doubt somehow the RN planned on sending a carrier without any supporting ships. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/54 "2002-08-13T07:45:27Z")
My dad commanded U.S. Navy aircraft carriers. He told me that the UK made all the important innovations on carriers and that the U.S. had the resources to implement them. Well dad was [right](http://www.btinternet.com/~warship/Feature/history.htm). > [@](#): > > On 4th December 1945 the first deck landing of a jet aircraft was made by a De Havilland Vampire onboard Ocean. Despite the cutbacks and rundown of the carrier fleet the 1960’s saw three new British technological innovations introduced:- the angled flight deck, steam catapults and mirror landing sites. The mirror landing site did away with the need for a batsman and therefore made landing safer. A sequence of lights would be reflected in a mirror on the carrier’s flight deck. This was safer in two main ways- firstly there was less chance of human error as there was no batsman, secondly the pilot could concentrate on the flight deck rather than be distracted by the batsman. Steam catapults utilised steam from a carrier’s boilers in the launching of aircraft while the angled flight deck reduced the risk and danger of unsuccessful launchings and landings. If an incoming plane missed an arrester wire it could make another attempt and if the landing should go wrong and the aircraft end up in the sea, it would be out of the path of the carrier. So, this is one American who will say nothing disparaging about the RN, or its carriers. In fact, thanks for making our navy what it is today. Your innovations have saved countless American lives. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/55 "2002-08-13T07:54:34Z")
Now the [Sea Vampire](http://home.sol.no/~jhoset/bilder/vampire.jpg) was a bizarrely attractive aircraft. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/56 "2002-08-13T07:55:50Z")
Sorry. That site doesn’t allow direct linking – try [this link instead](http://home.sol.no/~jhoset/jhvampire.html). ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/57 "2002-08-13T11:27:44Z")
I think the main benefit of the steam catapult was that it made pictures of aircraft taking off far cooler. I assume before the steam catapult they had to use a dry ice machine to get the same effect. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/58 "2002-08-13T11:41:52Z")
I just found [this](http://www.beyond2000.com/news/Jul_00/story_698.html). But, once again, the Brits are in the forefront. Albeit this time with the U.S. Pre steam I think they used big rubber bands and a team of hamsters. Or not, searching. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/59 "2002-08-13T17:34:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by d12 \* > \*\* > > Somehow it wouldn’t suprise me if the good ol’ Johnny decided to send the boys out (who JUST got back from the Afghan tour) for another round and why? Because Bush told him he might win another election in doing so. > > To the OP: Sending one ship doesn’t mean too much, it’s when you send out a fleet. > > Someone posted about carriers with Seakings? You might want a refund or something to get them to fly (more of a Canadian joke unless it’s happened elsewhere too.) > > My $0.01 cdn. > d12 \*\* Not Likely. Jean and his bunch are unlikely to get involved in this one. I doubt whether we can afford to send out our troops. The Liberals have not been the biggest fans of the Military and it seems unlikely they will bust the budget to send them out again. Unless the British give us our money back for those Lemon Subs they dumped on us. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436/60 "2002-08-13T23:09:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kingpengvin \* > \*\*Unless the British give us our money back for those Lemon Subs they dumped on us. \*\* Is a lemon sub: One that is flawed, like a lemon car? A fruit sandwich? A houseboat belonging to the Beatles? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-the-uk-sends-the-ark-royal-rn-flagship-this-is-not-a-good-sign/122436.md?page=4)