# IRAQ: Time to Admit Mistake; Withdraw? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402 "2004-04-05T18:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/121 "2004-04-13T13:17:12Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > How can better communication possibly undo the damage done? I don’t know exactly what **skarf** was talking about, but communication can take the orm of actions. It doesn’t have to mean words. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/122 "2004-04-13T13:26:43Z")
I guess this is kinda trite, but if I say “trust me” and then shoot your sister, which is louder, the action or the words? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/123 "2004-04-13T13:43:47Z")
**Desmostylus** , as you well said in the other thread in the Pit, Bush’s rhetoric and that of the US government, is not directed at the Iraqi people but at the American public. They have been sold a bill of goods and the rehtoric is aimed at keeping then convinced that they made a great purchase. The “transfer of sovereignty” farce and all the rhetoric coming out daily from Bagdhag Bob Bremmer are not aimed at the Iraqi people but at maintaining support from the American people. Communication with the Iraqis is being done at gun point and even the UK military in Iraq have expressed dismay at how the USA is handling things. The problem with America’s arrogant attitude is that it makes it impossible to change course without losing face. that is why Bush repeats several times a day “stay the course”. Well, fine, but we’re warning you that you are steaming at full speed towards a cliff. the fact that you wish to ignore it will not make it go away. At first the people are exhilarated and think “we’re winning!”. Later it’s “we can still win”. A couple decades from now people will look back and say “what the hell were we thinking?”. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/124 "2004-04-13T13:52:28Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > The problem is that many of you are believing the notion that the objective is to “install a democracy and yadda yadda” in which case the present policies make no sense. To me it is clear the objective is to build an occupy military bases in Iraq for a long time and that is what the Iraqis are fighting so there is no possible compromise. One side will win and one will lose. The objective is not peace and get out where both sides win. The objective is to remain there which cannot be done without the Iraqis losing. It will be a military defeat, either for the Iraqis or for the USA. There is no other way. Aside from what the objective of the WH may or may not be, the issues of what we _should_ do remains. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/125 "2004-04-13T13:59:51Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Aside from what the objective of the WH may or may not be, the issues of what we _should_ do remains. I don’t think the issue of our remaining or not in Iraq is up to the US public. The current administrations intends to stay. The issue that is up to the public is whether or not the current administration stays in office. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/126 "2004-04-13T14:09:21Z")
Okay, this may seem like a silly question, but… Do the Iraqi people want a democracy? I don’t mean in a bullshit, stars-and-stripes-waving, “everyone wants democracy” sort of way. I mean, do those people over there actually want it? Keeping in mind that there’s three large groups over there that hate each other, along with an insane number divisions in those groups that hate each other, is there an actual desire for democracy? This is a place where the tyranny of the majority could lead to violence on a massive scale…as opposed to such a thing in the USA. Beyond that, here’s one for the historians: Can a “democracy” be imposed on a nation by force? How about by an outside force, such as an occupying power? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/127 "2004-04-13T14:09:39Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Aside from what the objective of the WH may or may not be, the issues of what we _should_ do remains. Turns out you’re going to have 2 choices. 1. Stay the course with Bush (no cite, y’all know about this one, unless it changes tomorrow), or 2. Stay the course with Kerrey ([breaking news](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6753-2004Apr12.html)) Looks like the US could be paying the price for decades. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/128 "2004-04-13T14:23:04Z")
American made a big mistake but America does not have the guts it takes to admit this. It is easier to continue killing and being killed than to admit the obvious blunder. Such is human nature. America has painted itself into a corner and no matter what happens in the November elections America will not willingly cede control of Iraq because it has foolishly put its reputation on that issue. So we may see the sorry spectacle of America finally being beat out of Iraq like it was out of Vietnam. And the Bushistas will not change their tune one bit. It will be “We could have won if it weren’t for… . .” and they will find a thousand reasons but their own stupidity and lack of understanding will not be among them. ---
**Author:** ![esquimalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@esquimalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esquimalt)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/129 "2004-04-13T14:44:20Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > So we may see the sorry spectacle of America finally being beat out of Iraq like it was out of Vietnam. Here is a Russian Perspective on the often recurring Vietnam analogy. [Cite](http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/04/13/009.html) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/130 "2004-04-13T15:07:07Z")
I am not implying any parallels or similarities except that _if and when_ America is forced to leave Iraq by force it will have consequences which also happened as a result of Vietnam like America will tend to not want to police the world or get involved in such adventures. I doubt that if America is forced to leave Iraq it would soon want to get involved in a similar adventure. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/131 "2004-04-13T15:42:33Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I am not implying any parallels or similarities except that _if and when_ America is forced to leave Iraq by force it will have consequences which also happened as a result of Vietnam like America will tend to not want to police the world or get involved in such adventures. I doubt that if America is forced to leave Iraq it would soon want to get involved in a similar adventure. Whether or not this would be bad depends upon the lesson taken from it. It strict isolationism is the result it would be bad. If we learn that there is a whole other world with different ideas and aspirations that we need to join in trying to improve the lot of all, then it might not be so bad. Since a majority of people still cling to the claim that going into Iraq was right, I don’t hold out a lot of hope for the #2 choice. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/132 "2004-04-13T16:05:06Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > SADDAM “EL SINCERO GUAPPO” HUSSEIN Saddam: George, would you say that I have a plethora of supporters? George: Si, El Guappo. Saddam: George, do you know what a plethora is? George: Ummm…errr…ahh… Saddam: George, why do you tell me that I have a plethora if you do not know what a plethora is? Thank you, thank you. -Joe, the fourth Amigo ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/133 "2004-04-13T16:45:54Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Wow!!! What debating skill!! Thanks ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/134 "2004-04-13T19:39:19Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > And the Bushistas will not change their tune one bit. It will be “We could have won if it weren’t for… . .” and they will find a thousand reasons but their own stupidity and lack of understanding will not be among them. Oh, I’m sure it will be all our fault. Historically, it’s we “nattering nabobs of negativity” who end up getting blamed for failures that actually stem from the stupidity and short-sightedness of the administration doing the blaming. If we’d _just_ been willing to steel our hearts and blow them all to kingdom come… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/135 "2004-04-13T21:06:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Amid continuing negotiations for a ceasefire, insurgents have continued torching convoys carrying food and fuel to Baghdad. > > Coalition authority officials deny the attacks on their supply lines have interrupted the delivery of vital goods, but contractors say Iraqi drivers are shying away from work with the coalition leaving ports clogged with containers. > > “Try to lease a truck now, no one will give you one,” said Faisal Khudairy, an Iraqi contractor with a large deal to build a military base north of Baghad. This in a [story](http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1079420268807) whose main focus is on Western contractors in Iraq eyeing the exits. BTW, a poll late last month showed Americans favored staying in Iraq by a surprisingly narrow 50-44% margin. (I’ll try to dig out the link, but there have been a lot of polls lately, so it may be hard to search out the right one.) I’d like to see them ask that one again sometime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/136 "2004-04-13T21:17:37Z")
NGOs are starting to peel out, as well. Several have left the country already. This situation is reminiding me more and more of the Soviets and the state’s reporting on Afghanistan, or even Stalingrad. The military repeating, “it is alright, nothing bad is happening” while the situation goes to utter hell. It will be interesting to see who blames who. The way it looks, my money is on everyone blaming there not being enough troops to do the job, and while that may have some truth to it, that is a smokescreen. In that scenario, though, Bush catches some criticism, so we’ll see how his administration spins it. They’ll probably blame it on Al Qaeda’s influence or something - or worse yet, Iranian covert rebels, giving a reason to swing east and aim for Tehran. _shudder_ ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402/137 "2004-04-14T02:30:37Z")
really bad news of the day (and man, there is serious competition) Kofi to George:Drop Dead Now our only hope is Obi-Wan Kenobi… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-time-to-admit-mistake-withdraw/238402.md?page=6)