# Iraq to begin execution of LGBT citizens "in batches of 20" later this week **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513 "2009-03-31T23:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/1 "2009-03-31T23:33:21Z")
If true, [this](http://gayrights.change.org/blog/view/is_the_iraqi_government_executing_lgbt_people) is absolutely and completely horrifying. The question is to those of you that support the pull out of Iraq and denounce American control of the region: _should_ we do anything about this? The second question is: _can_ we do anything? ---
**Author:** ![Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spatial_Rift_47)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/2 "2009-03-31T23:34:21Z")
Yes, and no. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/3 "2009-03-31T23:38:59Z")
Is there a “real” source for this info anywhere? It doesn’t turn up in any searches of dependable news sites. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/4 "2009-03-31T23:41:41Z")
If true, that is indeed truely horrendous. What to do? In my world every nation on the planet would put boots on the ground and stop it. In the real world we’ll get sanctions. Man, I hope this isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/5 "2009-03-31T23:45:06Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > The question is to those of you that support the pull out of Iraq and denounce American control of the region: _should_ we do anything about this? The second question is: _can_ we do anything? We can’t do anything, nor do we actually care. We are probably responsible for more dead LGBT people in Iraq ourselves; that’s one of many areas in which Iraq is worse off under us than under Saddam. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/6 "2009-03-31T23:48:25Z")
That’s what happens when you change a secular country into a theocracy. A lot of Iraqis were better off under Saddam. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/7 "2009-04-01T00:01:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s what happens when you change a secular country into a theocracy. A lot of Iraqis were better off under Saddam. Maybe, but Sadaam criminalized homosexuality himself, in 2001. And before that, even when it was technically legal, it wasn’t in practice. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/8 "2009-04-01T00:10:57Z")
So why are we discussing this as if it’s the worst thing ever, and condemning America for letting/making it happen, when it hasn’t yet even remotely passed the “cite?” test? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/9 "2009-04-01T00:37:45Z")
The 128 number appears to come from [here](http://news.yahoo.com/s/oneworld/20090319/wl_oneworld/world3611271237499587). Its the total number of who are on death row in Iraq. Even if Iraq does use capital punishment for homosexuality (and I haven’t seen any evidence that this is the case), I seriously doubt all 128 are were convicted for being gay. The OP’s cite is BS and doesn’t stand up to the 20 second google test. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/10 "2009-04-01T00:39:29Z")
[IraqiLGBT says:](http://iraqilgbtuk.blogspot.com/) > [@](#): > > Urgent action is needed to halt the execution of 128 prisoners on death row in Iraq. Many of those awaiting execution were convicted for the ‘crime’ of homosexuality, according to IRAQI-LGBT, a UK based organisation of Iraqis supporting gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people in Iraq. > > According to Ali Hili of IRAQI-LGBT, the Iraqi authorities plan to start executing them in batches of 20 from this week. […] > > Amnesty International has called on the Iraqi authorities to make public all information pertaining to the 128 people, including their full names, details of the charges against them, the dates of their arrest, trial and appeal and their current places of detention. [Amnesty International says](http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/iraq-urged-stop-execution-128-prisoners-death-row-20090313) (on 13 March, so “this week” has already come and gone): > [@](#): > > Iraq’s Justice Minister has been urged to stop the execution of 128 prisoners on death row, amid reports that the authorities plan to start executing them in batches of 20 from this week. > > The use of the death penalty has been increasing at an alarming rate in Iraq since the government reintroduced it in August 2004. […] > > The Iraqi Supreme Judicial Council informed Amnesty International on 9 March that Iraq’s Presidential Council (comprising the President and the two Vice-Presidents) had ratified the death sentences of 128 people whose sentences had already been confirmed by the Cassation Court. > > The Iraqi authorities have not disclosed the identities of those facing imminent execution, stoking fears that many of them may have been sentenced to death after trials that failed to satisfy international standards for fair trial. > > Most are likely to have been sentenced to death by the Central Criminal Court of Iraq (CCCI), whose proceedings consistently fall short of international standards for fair trial. Some are likely to have been convicted of crimes such as murder and kidnapping on the basis of confessions they allege were extracted under torture during their pre-trial detention by Iraqi security forces. […] > > Amnesty International has called on the Iraqi authorities to make public all information pertaining to the 128 people, including their full names, details of the charges against them, the dates of their arrest, trial and appeal and their current places of detention. So it seems to be the case that there are, or were as of mid-March, 128 condemned Iraqi prisoners whose convictions were, to say the least, questionable. However, there appears to be no reliable information about what they were charged with or convicted of or whether charges of homosexuality were involved. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/11 "2009-04-01T00:47:39Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Even if Iraq does use capital punishment for homosexuality (and I haven’t seen any evidence that this is the case) It is certainly true that [homosexuality is a capital crime in Iraq](http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=26110): > [@](#): > > Since 2001, an amendment to the 1990 Penal Code has made homosexual behaviour between consenting adults a crime. In that year, the Revolutionary Command Council issued a decree making the offences of prostitution, homosexuality, incest and rape punishable by death, according to Amnesty International. > > It is believed that the sudden introduction of the death penalty for these acts was tied to a desire by Saddam Hussein to win the support of Islamic conservatives. > > The law has not been changed since the US-led invasion of the country. > > Under Islamic law, the penalty for men engaging in anal sex is also death. > > The new Iraqi constitution provides protection against discrimination on a variety of grounds, including sex, religion, belief, opinion and social and economic status, but fails to explicitly mention homosexuality. […] > > Under the regime of Saddam Hussein, homosexuality was punished using the harshest of methods, often involving torture. > > According to estimates from the Ministry of Human Rights, more than 3,000 men were tortured by Hussein’s officials for expressing their sexuality between 1991 and 2003. […] > > So-called “honour killing,” the murder of a family member by a relative to protect the family’s reputation, often occurs in Iraq when a man is believed to be gay, according to the Human Rights Ministry. > > Article 111 of the Iraqi Penal Code exempts from prosecution and punishment men who kill other men or female relatives in defence of their family’s honour. > > "He who discovers his wife, one of his female relatives committing adultery or a male relative engaged in sodomy and kills, wounds or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty,” the law states. > > Fifteen cases of honour killings have been reported in the past two years [as of 2006] for crimes against homosexuals in the capital alone, according to a Baghdad-based lawyers’ association. > > Abu Qussay said he killed his son after discovering he was gay. He said he was now considered a hero by his friends. > > “I hanged him in my house in front of his brother to give an example to all of them and prevent them from doing the same,” Qussay said proudly. > > After the father of two was arrested for the murder, he was charged with the killing and then released a month later when his lawyer explained why his client had committed the crime. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/12 "2009-04-01T01:31:22Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > If true, that is indeed truely horrendous. > > What to do? In my world every nation on the planet would put boots on the ground and stop it. In the real world we’ll get sanctions. > > Man, I hope this isn’t true. Maybe I’m evil but in MY world - if this is true - I would pull all the troops out, cancel all aid, remoe any protection we are giving, and throw them to the wolves. I thought (yeah, I know better) that we were there to bring freedom and democracy (yeah uh huh) and it had nothing to do with oil or power. So much for that I guess. Yeah, throw them to the wolves. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/13 "2009-04-01T01:54:06Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Yeah, throw them to the wolves. So you want to be able remove as stable government on false pretenses, then occupy the country, turning it into an anarchic mess. Then you want to walk away and let people die. Dude you aren’t throwing them to the wolves. You are breeding wolves and then disarming the people, breaking their arms and legs, painting them with sheeps blood, staking them out on the ground and and sicking the wolves onto them. And yes, that does make you evil. The US led coalition fucked the country up, bigtime. We can’t just say now “gee things are pretty fucked, these people deserve what they get”. They are getting precisely what we gave them. In short, you fucked it,you fix it. You don’t get to walk away and let people die because fixing things is tough. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/14 "2009-04-01T02:05:18Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > In short, you fucked it,you fix it. You don’t get to walk away and let people die because fixing things is tough. What makes you think that we have the ability, or the desire ? What makes you think we are capable of being anything other than part of the problem ? America is neither well meaning, nor competent. At least, competent at anything but destruction and exploitation, which is hardly the way to help them. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/15 "2009-04-01T02:23:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What makes you think that we have the ability, or the desire ? What makes you think we are capable of being anything other than part of the problem ? Eternal optimism. But at least make the f(&^ing effort. This “We fucked things up, gee things are pretty fucked, well the people living here deserve it for living in a fucked up place like this. Let’s go home and have a beer” attitude is just plain evil. > [@](#): > > America is neither well meaning, nor competent. At least, competent at anything but destruction and exploitation, which is hardly the way to help them. That’s a little extreme, no? America is competent in a great many areas. Middle East relations just happens to be one area where it is incompetent on every possible level. But even that doesn’t preclude the US, if necessary, removing all personnel and funding a more competent body to try to solve the fuckup it created. There’s certainly no justification for setting fire the house and then levaing the occupants to burn. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/16 "2009-04-01T04:07:56Z")
So disagreeing with who gets the death penalty in a country is grounds for another country to intervene? i suppose all the civilized countries in the world, which have already abolished the death penalty completely as barbaric, should get together and start making plans to intervene in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/17 "2009-04-01T05:13:56Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > So disagreeing with who gets the death penalty in a country is grounds for another country to intervene? Assuming you haven’t just returned from Mars you should be aware that you intervened 7 years ago. You should also not be ignorant of the fact that you have 100, 000 soldiers and god knows how many mercenaries there right now. So how the hell can you claim that it’s somehow immoral or impractical to intervene? Nobody is suggesting that you intervene any more, just that your ongoing, massive and destabilising intervention not produce a completely barbaric government that murders its own citizens on whim. Does that sound unreasonable to you? That was the justification for the invasion, right? To get rid of barbaric government that murdered its own citizens on whim? Oh, no, hang on. It was to remove WMDs that could strike London within 20 minutes. Err, no, hang on, it was about 9/11. Hang on, there was no fu\*@&ing clearly stated aim of the invasion, and no exit strategy. And now that it’s worked out so well that thousands of civilians have been killed by coalition troops, and hundreds of thousands more in civil unrest following the destruction of a stable government, and now hundreds more are being executed in cold blood by a puppet government propped up by the coalition. And now you want to claim that you shouldn’t or can’t intervene. Well its too late. You should have thought of that before you intervened. The fact is that you did intervene and you are responsible for this sort of shit being perpetrated by the government that you installed and that your troops are keeping in power. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/18 "2009-04-01T05:33:01Z")
getting back to the OP… aside from the fact that its far from definite that they’re being executed for being gay… I would be very divided on the idea of intervention - on the one hand I don’t think “being gay” should single anybody out for such a thing, and its totally unjust, immoral and outright wrong. On the other hand, Iraq is not my country, and as a sovereign nation, they should, and do have the rights to enact whatever laws they think suit their citizens. If this means outlawing homosexuality and making it punishable by the death penalty, then so be it. To want to impose “American Will” or standards on other countries by force breeds the sort of resentment that has made the US a pariah in the court of public opinion… ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/19 "2009-04-01T05:58:48Z")
**Blake** , my lad, you must have not been paying attention. I am not American and I opposed the invasion vehemently from before it ever started. My position is that America has zero legitimacy to be in Iraq. Zero. None. It is none of their business. That is the meaning of my post. America has no right whatsoever to force others to behave in ways America likes. America has the rights all other nations have: to protest, to throw tantrums, to hold their breath, etc. But not to use force. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513/20 "2009-04-01T06:09:10Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > On the other hand, Iraq is not my country, and as a sovereign nation, they should, and do have the rights to enact whatever laws they think suit their citizens. If this means outlawing homosexuality and making it punishable by the death penalty, then so be it. In my mind there are two very obvious problems with this statement. The first is that Iraq is only sovereign nation in the same way that Poland or Lithuania in 1960 were sovereign nations. The Iraqi government operates under a constitution that the US imposed upon it, it only exists because of the coalition invasion, it owes its continued existence to coalition troops and coalition money and if either dried up they would cease to exist in an instant. Saying that Iraq is a sovereign state is really stretching the definition. The second problem is that a major excuse used for invading Iraq was to prevent the killing of minorities by the government of the day. Hell, we just executed the last leader and several of his top aides with the justification that their government killed minorities. And now you want us to accept that no matter what the human rights abuses entailed or what minority gets slaughtered by the government it’s alright, provided it’s done under the cover of “whatever laws they think suit their citizens”. So tell me, if Hussein had passed laws that said that being Kurdish was punishable by death, and that he believed that such a law “suited his citizens”, would that also be OK? How about if the Nazis had passed laws that said that being Jewish was punishable by death, and that they believed that such a law “suited their citizens”. Actually I believe they did exactly that. Yet I find it hard to believe that you support the Nazi’s to outlawing of Jewishness and making it punishable by the death penalty. I honestly fail to see the difference here. In all cases the sovereign government has outlawed a minority and made being a member of that minority punishable by death base don laws they think suit their citizens”. So do you consider all these to be acceptable, and if not why? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-to-begin-execution-of-lgbt-citizens-in-batches-of-20-later-this-week/491513.md?page=2)