# Iraq today - is this the price for democracy ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103 "2006-12-06T18:59:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/1 "2006-12-06T18:59:38Z")
If so, I would have choosed to live under a dictator Democracy and freedom of speach vs. law, order and peace ? I would easily have choosed the last ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/2 "2006-12-06T19:08:52Z")
Ignoring your false dilemma, for the moment, would you care to post a somewhat more coherent argument? The options are hardly limited to “Democracy and freedom of speach vs. law, order and peace ?” If you are merely saying that you would rather live in a stable dictatorship than a civil war, then I can move this to **IMHO** for you. If you are trying to say something else that will prompt a genuine discussion, then please post it so that I do not close this thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/3 "2006-12-06T20:05:49Z")
[QUOTE=Wildfire\*\*MM] If so, I would have choosed to live under a dictator [/QUOTE] Yeah, but you’re from Central Europe, so we knew that already. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/4 "2006-12-06T20:13:20Z")
In other news, a new study shows Europeans prefer tyranny to democracy. Or wait, was this supposed to make AMERICANS feel ashamed of themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/5 "2006-12-06T20:29:12Z")
Yeah, democracy can be seen as somewhat of a luxury, when you don’t have food, shelter, employment, physical safety… But no one coulda possibly predicted that there would be any difficulty simply replacing Iraq’s previous regime with a western style democracy? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/6 "2006-12-06T20:32:18Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] But no one coulda possibly predicted that there would be any difficulty simply replacing Iraq’s previous regime with a western style democracy? [/QUOTE] I hope that question was ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/7 "2006-12-06T20:46:47Z")
I remember going to a talk during the lead up to the war. Not sure who - a retired journalist I believe. One of his main premises concerned the impossibility of simply imposing western-style democracy upon a society that didn’t even have an established middle class - and the kid of established institutions that allow for economic and other longterm planning. Those can be more vital to a society’s stability than the specific manner by which officials are selected. Made sense to me then, still makes sense. Of course, at the time the vast majority of folks were counting on the best and brightest making their decisions based on their superior information… ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/8 "2006-12-07T06:38:48Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] I remember going to a talk during the lead up to the war. Not sure who - a retired journalist I believe. One of his main premises concerned the impossibility of simply imposing western-style democracy upon a society that didn’t even have an established middle class - and the kid of established institutions that allow for economic and other longterm planning. Those can be more vital to a society’s stability than the specific manner by which officials are selected. Made sense to me then, still makes sense. Of course, at the time the vast majority of folks were counting on the best and brightest making their decisions based on their superior information… [/QUOTE] The only established institution in Irak is religion. Democracy must go though islam That’s my suggestion ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/9 "2006-12-07T06:52:48Z")
So, **Wildfire** MM\*\*, do you have a point for discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/10 "2006-12-07T07:08:38Z")
He hasn’t even settled on a spelling for the name of the country we’re discussing. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/11 "2006-12-07T10:34:38Z")
The trouble with Iraq is that there are three brands of Islam there, and they don’t seem to like each other very much. We don’t know, but it is very possible that there are quite a lot of Iraqis who are not that keen on religion. @Wildfire\*\*MM you seem to be saying that there is no alternative to government by Islam because it is the only thing that is remotely organized in Iraq. I understand your point that ‘democracy’ pales into insignificance when there is a break down of law and order. ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/12 "2006-12-07T11:26:24Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] I understand your point that ‘democracy’ pales into insignificance when there is a break down of law and order. [/QUOTE] Yes ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/13 "2006-12-07T11:38:31Z")
I think that this might get moved to IMHO - however I’m interested in where you come from in Central Europe, is it in former Yugoslavia ? Our views are heavily influenced by our experiences, to a lesser extent by what we’ve been told about by people who have experienced things. I think that Iraq will probably land up partitioned into three sections, and I can see a Ba’athist solution in Central Iraq. Syria is Ba’athist which could help. ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/14 "2006-12-07T11:55:02Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] I think that this might get moved to IMHO - however I’m interested in where you come from in Central Europe, is it in former Yugoslavia ? Our views are heavily influenced by our experiences, to a lesser extent by what we’ve been told about by people who have experienced things. I think that Iraq will probably land up partitioned into three sections, and I can see a Ba’athist solution in Central Iraq. Syria is Ba’athist which could help. [/QUOTE] Central Europe = France, Germany, Benelux, Swiss ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/15 "2006-12-07T12:11:42Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] I think that this might get moved to IMHO - however I’m interested in where you come from in Central Europe, is it in former Yugoslavia ? Our views are heavily influenced by our experiences, to a lesser extent by what we’ve been told about by people who have experienced things. I think that Iraq will probably land up partitioned into three sections, and I can see a Ba’athist solution in Central Iraq. Syria is Ba’athist which could help. [/QUOTE] Syrian ba’athists and iraq ba’athists have always been mortal enemies. Syria sided with Iran not Iraq in the war between the two. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/16 "2006-12-07T13:08:52Z")
[QUOTE=Wildfire\*\*MM] Central Europe = France, Germany, Benelux, Swiss [/QUOTE] Huh? Switzerland, maybe, but France, Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, and Luxemburg (Benelux) are all West-Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/17 "2006-12-07T13:22:24Z")
[QUOTE=Maastricht] Huh? Switzerland, maybe, but France, Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, and Luxemburg (Benelux) are all West-Europe. [/QUOTE] Western Europe have two meanings. For most it means the political entity that border with East-Europa. Central Europa is in this context a part of west Europe ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-today-is-this-the-price-for-democracy/383103/18 "2006-12-07T13:34:00Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Syrian ba’athists and iraq ba’athists have always been mortal enemies. Syria sided with Iran not Iraq in the war between the two. [/QUOTE] I did not know that - but it figures Mind you the USA and Iraq were once pretty friendly - I’m just guessing on the outcome for Central Iraq, I would reackon that they have more in common with the Syrian nomenclatura than anyone else adjacent.