# Iraq Vet thoughts on Afganistan **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 19, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644 "2011-07-19T23:39:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644/61 "2012-08-03T18:46:11Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Amazing and astonishing ignorance about just about every thing of Afghan and Afghani society, culture terrain and Afghanistan’s history in general. Afghanistan is not Iraq, it is not an urban country, control of the urban centers has never has much relevance to who is actually in charge of the country. You need to control the mountain passes (the last time a central government has those under control was circa 1800) and the roads and have the loyalty of the tribes in that region. NATO does not have any of that and there is no way the any puppet government with an army with is majority non Pashtun is going to be able to do so. Well, IIRC you are Pakistani so you would know better than I. Isn’t the seat of government in Kabul? What is the population distribution between the mountains/countryside and the cities/large villages? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644/62 "2012-08-03T18:49:51Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Well, IIRC you are Pakistani so you would know better than I. Isn’t the seat of government in Kabul? What is the population distribution between the mountains/countryside and the cities/large villages? There are many different power centers. You have Kabul in the North, Kandahar in the South, Herat to the West. The Taliban’s power was and is in Kandahar. The population is overwhelmingly rural and divide into multiple ethnicities, tribes and sub tribes, with loyalty being primarily to the local sub tribe/clan. 35 years of war has only strengthened those loyalties, as various players made and continued to make and break alliances between the various clans, tribes, ethnic groups. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644/63 "2012-08-03T19:06:06Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > There are many different power centers. You have Kabul in the North, Kandahar in the South, Herat to the West. The Taliban’s power was and is in Kandahar. The population is overwhelmingly rural and divide into multiple ethnicities, tribes and sub tribes, with loyalty being primarily to the local sub tribe/clan. 35 years of war has only strengthened those loyalties, as various players made and continued to make and break alliances between the various clans, tribes, ethnic groups. I knew that at least some of the Afghani people don’t have much of a national identity. As a percentage of the overall population, how many people do you think that comprises? I realize that you may only be able to venture a WAG, and that’s totally fine. I ask because I wonder if its possible for a nation of tribes and clans such as Afghanistan if it is even possible to foster pride in their nation writ large. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644/64 "2012-08-04T06:34:07Z")
How, exactly, will we know when we have achieved success in Afghanistan? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644/65 "2012-08-04T12:24:40Z")
Once the average American can pick up their prescription of opium from CVS and still have change left over for Baklava. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644/66 "2012-08-04T18:14:22Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I knew that at least some of the Afghani people don’t have much of a national identity. As a percentage of the overall population, how many people do you think that comprises? I realize that you may only be able to venture a WAG, and that’s totally fine. I ask because I wonder if its possible for a nation of tribes and clans such as Afghanistan if it is even possible to foster pride in their nation writ large. Sorry missed your question earlier. There is a concept of Afghanistan/Khorsan which dates back, well millenia. However its the concept of a region (like say Europe, or the Caucasus or the Far East) rather than a nation state. A good if imperfect analogy would be pre unification Italy. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644/67 "2012-08-04T18:26:58Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > How, exactly, will we know when we have achieved success in Afghanistan? Same as usual; when the President declares “mission accomplished”. It would really have to be something for a George W Bush war to be “worth it” to the common man. But hugely, hugely worth it for the owners of oil stock, anyone concerned with the military-industrial complex, and his election backers in general. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644/68 "2012-08-04T19:25:53Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Same as usual; when the President declares “mission accomplished”. > > It would really have to be something for a George W Bush war to be “worth it” to the common man. > > But hugely, hugely worth it for the owners of oil stock, anyone concerned with the military-industrial complex, and his election backers in general. Afghanistan has oil now? ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644/69 "2012-08-04T21:38:01Z")
^ Everyone loves a smartarse. From the OP: > [@askeptic](#): > > Have the wars in Afganistan and Iraq and yes Libya made us safer have they served our collective interest? I don’t think so. If human rights are so important why have we done nothing about child rape in Kyrgistan mass murder in Sudan prison camps in North Korea and China militancy in Indonesia lawlessness in Somalia and countless other atrocities? I think Iraq Afganistan and now Libya are meant to distract us from what’s really going on. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644/70 "2012-08-05T10:24:09Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Afghanistan has oil now? Wasn’t it recently discovered that Afghanistan has a huge amount of rare minerals? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644/71 "2012-08-06T16:52:29Z")
> [@Chessic Sense](#): > > First of all, I don’t know how many times I have to say it, but there’s no /u/ in al Qaeda. Well, it is transliterated. Most spellings have a hyphen though. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644/72 "2012-08-09T10:57:10Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Iraq, probably not. Libya, more likely but still probably not. Afghanistan, certainly. The Afghani government harbored and gave aid to the organization that has made the single most destructive attack on American soil ever. Afghanistan is a legitimate conflict serving American interests by any definition you care to name. America will certainly be safer with the Taliban and Al Qaida destroyed, in a way that you can’t legitimately argue for Saddam or Gadaffi. I don’t know. It matters not so much what happened in the past, but what we accomplish there. If you just want vendetta, we’ve well and truly paid the Afghans back in spades. If you want to take down the al-Qaeda boys, that’s something else, and we’ve been doing that. If you want to reform Afghanistan into something that isn’t ripe for the Taliban, I don’t know, maybe stop propping up those warlords that are even less civilized than the Taliban? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644/73 "2012-08-10T20:27:26Z")
They were shot to death by a “friendly” party. Haven’t we had enough of this insanity? Face it, there is no “nation” to build. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644/74 "2012-08-10T21:09:53Z")
In a world full of uncertainty, we can still count on **ralph** to always post comments that are never quite on topic; and have the general tone-deafness and lack of insight one might find if Rain Man had a conversation with Eliza on a Commodore 64. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644/75 "2012-08-11T05:26:20Z")
Afghanistan’s history might be summarized as a long series of Civil Wars, pitting one evil faction against another. In its own crude fashion, it began modernising during the mid-20th century. The Soviet Union took the side supporting human rights, so naturally the U.S. had to side with the Islamist fanatics. Since then, Pakistan and U.S. have been operating in their own perceived self-interests, Afghan people be damned. The U.S. needed to intervene in Afghanistan to neutralize al-Qaeda. It should have done so, left the keys to the country in Afghan hands and said bye-bye providing generous aid. Instead it viewed the intervention as a grand experiment in Creative Destruction and used development aid to help connected companies rather than to help Afghans. The government that U.S.A. created in Afghanistan is now ranked 3rd in the world for corruption, behind only North Korea and Somalia. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Once the floodgates of civilization are opened over there, and people get a little taste of some modernity and its trappings, there will be too many people that want a better way of life for the Taliban or whomever to keep under their collective thumbs. Just show 'em Tom Cruise movies and feed 'em with McDonald’s and all problems are over, hunh? Purple-finger democracy, maybe throw in some Christian missionaries? – Sorry for the snark. The idea that countries like Afghanistan just need to be awoken to American values is just so … (checks forum) _Bushian_. As for Iraq – U.S. should never have intervened there at all. I’ve read about five books that make clear what a travesty of hypocrisy that was. If anyone disagrees, I’d ask them to post their reading list. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-vet-thoughts-on-afganistan/589644.md?page=3)