# Iraq War pull-out with Victory **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038 "2006-11-19T16:18:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/21 "2006-11-19T18:33:08Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] I can assure you that when U.S. troops see someone shooting at them and setting off bombs, they go after him. [/QUOTE] And exactly how, BTW, are Iraqi officials able to interfere with that? ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/22 "2006-11-19T18:41:04Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] And exactly how, BTW, are Iraqi officials able to interfere with that? [/QUOTE] By not supporting our going into a neighborhood to root out the bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/23 "2006-11-19T18:43:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Fortunately I don’t have to nor do you…that’s what the military is for… the majority will be happy to be able to do their job. Did you miss the “more” in “20,000 more troops”? The US military is stretched thin as it is. To get more people on the ground in Iraq, we’d need to have more troops to send. The military doesn’t get more troops by just magically snapping its fingers; it gets them by recruiting folks from the general public. In other words, people like you and me. It must be nice to live in a world where the military has unlimited numbers of personnel that it can deploy as many as it wants wherever it wants, but there’s a strictly limited number of terrorists and when you kill the last one you’re done. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/24 "2006-11-19T18:50:33Z")
[QUOTE=What the … !!!] By not supporting our going into a neighborhood to root out the bad guys. [/QUOTE] The bad guys all have tatoos that say “bad guy”. It’s even in English to make it easier for us. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/25 "2006-11-19T18:52:20Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] It must be nice to live in a world where the military has unlimited numbers of personnel that it can deploy as many as it wants wherever it wants . . . [/QUOTE] :dubious: Would it? [biting lip hard on temptation to Godwinize] ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/26 "2006-11-19T18:59:52Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] Did you miss the “more” in “20,000 more troops”? The US military is stretched thin as it is. To get more people on the ground in Iraq, we’d need to have more troops to send. The military doesn’t get more troops by just magically snapping its fingers; it gets them by recruiting folks from the general public. In other words, people like you and me. It must be nice to live in a world where the military has unlimited numbers of personnel that it can deploy as many as it wants wherever it wants, but there’s a strictly limited number of terrorists and when you kill the last one you’re done. [/QUOTE] No… McCain seems to think we can do it. If you want to have a debate about the draft as Rangel called for today, that’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/27 "2006-11-19T19:06:31Z")
[QUOTE=El\_Kabong] Oh, and I would approcate it if you would not use ambiguous language if you feel our military is behaving in an insuffciently brutal manner in Iraq. Please give us some idea what level of non-combatant casualties you would accept as part of supposedly doing things “our way”. Right now, it’s not entirely clear, but are you advocating the indiscriminate destruction of general areas where “the enemy” is deemed to be present, or what? [/QUOTE] I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t even suggest that our military is being brutal. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/28 "2006-11-19T19:11:07Z")
Nah, the blame-America-first crowd is in charge on Capitol Hill, remember? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/29 "2006-11-19T19:16:22Z")
Don’t kid yourself. If you advocate military action in civilian neighborhoods, you are advocating brutality. We can be just as polite and circumspect in our descriptions as you may like and it will change nothing. There is no nuance in a corpse. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/30 "2006-11-19T20:57:40Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] If you advocate military action in civilian neighborhoods, you are advocating brutality. [/QUOTE] Even if no other form of military action could have even the slightest possibility of achieving the desired ends? This **is,** after all, a guerilla war, and unlike Vietnam the action is in cities, not jungles (nor deserts). ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/31 "2006-11-19T21:22:34Z")
[Quote=] I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t even suggest that our military is being brutal. [/Quote] Totally non-responsive to my question. Just pointing that out. I will also point out (again) that I was asking what degree of brutality _you_ think would be appropriate. I suggested perhaps you were thinking of the general destruction of a neighborhood deemed to be the refuge of ‘bad guys’. Is that your position, or not? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/32 "2006-11-19T21:26:32Z")
[QUOTE=El\_Kabong] I suggested perhaps you were thinking of the general destruction of a neighborhood deemed to be the refuge of ‘bad guys’. [/QUOTE] Nah. [url=[Fallujah during the Iraq War - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Fallujah)]We already tried that.[/ur] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/33 "2006-11-19T21:27:51Z")
[QUOTE=El\_Kabong] I suggested perhaps you were thinking of the general destruction of a neighborhood deemed to be the refuge of ‘bad guys’. [/QUOTE] Nah. [We already tried that.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Fallujah) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/34 "2006-11-19T22:32:49Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Even if no other form of military action could have even the slightest possibility of achieving the desired ends? This **is,** after all, a guerilla war, and unlike Vietnam the action is in cities, not jungles (nor deserts). [/QUOTE] That would be more along the lines of asking if an action is justified, not whether or not it constitutes “brutality”. If the “guerillas” are founded in popular support, attacking that base of support is equivalent to making war on civilians, which is anathema. We’re the Americans, we don’t do things like that. What, never? Well, hardly ever… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/35 "2006-11-19T22:36:41Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] If the “guerillas” are founded in popular support, attacking that base of support is equivalent to making war on civilians, which is anathema. [/QUOTE] Not necessarily. Guerillas and terrorists can hide **among** civilians without enjoying wide popular support. Just ask Timothy McVeigh. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/36 "2006-11-19T22:46:17Z")
[QUOTE=El\_Kabong] Totally non-responsive to my question. Just pointing that out. I will also point out (again) that I was asking what degree of brutality _you_ think would be appropriate. I suggested perhaps you were thinking of the general destruction of a neighborhood deemed to be the refuge of ‘bad guys’. Is that your position, or not? [/QUOTE] In some circumstances it might be warranted. I’m no military strategist but you have to fight them where they are . ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/37 "2006-11-19T23:31:38Z")
[QUOTE=What the … !!!] In some circumstances it might be warranted. I’m no military strategist but you have to fight them where they are . [/QUOTE] Ok, let me get this straight. You believe the US armed forces aren’t being brutal, and the premise of this thread is that you’d \*like them \* to be? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/38 "2006-11-19T23:47:13Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Who is the “enemy?” [/QUOTE] This is the most intelligent and pithy comment made so far in this thread. So far we’ve entered the conflict without a plan for termination, gone searching for “weapons of mass destruction” that nobody can find, declared “major combat operations” over and “Mission Accomplished!” without criteria, and have declared that we’re going to fight the “War On Terror” until we “win”. Given the lack of semantic rigor in the whole affair, I don’t think it would be out of the normal line of reasoning (such as it is) to arbitrarially declare “Victory Over Terror” and “strategically redeploy” our troops back home. (Eric Blair sits quietly in the corner weeping to himself, Ambrose Bierce dips his pen in the inkwell and starts another entry under the heading “Faith-Based Community”, and George Carlin just gets more bitter.) Whether this would be a good thing for the people living in Iraq is a serious question, but not one that we’re really in the position to rectify. The other alternative seems to be creating ghettos or reservations and isolating the various warring ethnic and religious factions indefinitely. (Good luck on selling that one, even if it were physically feasible.) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/39 "2006-11-20T00:08:41Z")
> [@Stranger on a Train](#): > > [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] > Who is the “enemy?” This is the most intelligent and pithy comment made so far in this thread. [/quote] Why is it intelligent? The “enemy” are those who are taking up arms against the legitimate government of Iraq and those who are actively assisting them. Now, it might at times be difficult to determine who is taking up arm against the state and who is engaged in plain ol’ criminal activity, but both are legitimate targets of the ISF and the US military in Iraq. And I don’t mean targets in the sense that they should be shot-- targets for detention and trial, although shooting at them if they’re shooting at us first is fine by me. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/40 "2006-11-20T00:18:01Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Why is it intelligent? The “enemy” are those who are taking up arms against the legitimate government of Iraq and those who are actively assisting them. [/QUOTE] IOW, the Shi’ites that are killing Sunnis, with the government’s tacit approval - we don’t regard them as enemies. So we’ve taken sides: we’re for the Shi’a, against the Sunni. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038.md?page=3)