# Iraq War pull-out with Victory **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038 "2006-11-19T16:18:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/41 "2006-11-20T00:26:55Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] IOW, the Shi’ites that are killing Sunnis, with the government’s tacit approval - we don’t regard them as enemies. So we’ve taken sides: we’re for the Shi’a, against the Sunni. [/QUOTE] I should have said that **criminal activity** made such people legitimate targets for detention. Oh wait, I did. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/42 "2006-11-20T00:31:24Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > The “enemy” are those who are taking up arms against the legitimate government of Iraq and those who are actively assisting them. By that definition, the enemy appears to be most of the damn country. Are you in favor of killing them all and letting Allah sort them out? Which way would \*we \* be sorted if we do as the OP wants? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/43 "2006-11-20T00:40:13Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Why is it intelligent? The “enemy” are those who are taking up arms against the legitimate government of Iraq and those who are actively assisting them. Now, it might at times be difficult to determine who is taking up arm against the state and who is engaged in plain ol’ criminal activity, but both are legitimate targets of the ISF and the US military in Iraq. [/QUOTE] The problem is that in the paradigm of military force, we operate under the tacit assumption of facing an indentifiable, organized opponent on a battlefield. Much of the reason that we will never “win” in Iraq is that there is no single force to defeat in combat. Nobody on the “Them” side is wearing uniforms or answering to a single would-be government, and there’s no decisive move to end the war. The only win–as far as ending violent conflict between warring factions–is to separate and disarm the combatants in a massive (and literal) police action; something our troops are neither trained, equipped, or supported to do. This isn’t like WWII, with an obvious opposing force; it’s not even like Gulf War I, with a clear objective (push the Iraqis out of Kuwait and obtain capitulation from Hussain). This is like trying to rid New York City of crime after the Moses Urban Planning fiasco. The honest and intelligent thing to do would have been to admit up front that this would be a long term occupation in adverse circumstances, and plan accordingly (i.e. work to gain approval from and compromise by various factions). We didn’t, and now basically anybody could be the enemy. This is why Bush The Elder made the smart move in leaving Hussain in power, however dubious his motives and post-war pledges of support to ethnic Kurds were. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/44 "2006-11-20T00:45:39Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] By that definition, the enemy appears to be most of the damn country. [/QUOTE] I don’t think so. Do you have a cite to prove that statement? > [@](#): > > Are you in favor of killing them all and letting Allah sort them out? Well, let’s see: > [@John Mace](#): > > …targets for detention and trial, although shooting at them if they’re shooting at us first is fine by me. So, that would be a “no”. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Which way would we be sorted if we do as the OP wants? I don’t believe in Allah, so I wouldn’t know how to answer that. But I do think the OP is grossly mistaken if he thinks the only thing preventing us from achieving “victory” is that the Iraqi government puts too much restrictions on what we can do. In fact, I think that’s mice nuts compared to the real problems in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/45 "2006-11-20T00:49:30Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I should have said that **criminal activity** made such people legitimate targets for detention. Oh wait, I did. [/QUOTE] And if, as has been suggested, the government of Iraq is selective it its response to “criminal activity”, what then? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/46 "2006-11-20T00:58:31Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I don’t think so. [/quote] Well, that’s nice. What does it matter to anyone else, though? > [@](#): > > I don’t believe in Allah, so I wouldn’t know how to answer that. All it takes to answer that is to have some sort of moral code higher than the self. You do have one, I trust? What conclusion would it lead you to? > [@](#): > > But I do think the OP is grossly mistaken if he thinks the only thing preventing us from achieving “victory” is that the Iraqi government puts too much restrictions on what we can do. In fact, I think that’s mice nuts compared to the real problems in Iraq. You’re acknowledging “the real problems in Iraq”? {falling to the floor swooning}. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/47 "2006-11-20T01:04:38Z")
Just to indulge that petulant demand for a cite for what should be widely known by those who follow the news:[Sep 27 '06](http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-09-27-iraqi-opinion_x.htm) > [@](#): > > About six in 10 Iraqis say they approve of attacks on U.S.-led forces, and slightly more than that want their government to ask U.S. troops to leave within a year, a poll finds. > > The Iraqis also have negative views of Osama bin Laden, according to the early September poll of 1,150. > > The poll, done for University of Maryland’s Program on International Policy Attitudes, found: > > • Almost four in five Iraqis say the U.S. military force in Iraq provokes more violence than it prevents. > > • **About 61% approved of the attacks — up from 47% in January**. A solid majority of Shiite and Sunni Arabs approved of the attacks, according to the poll. The increase came mostly among Shiite Iraqis. > > • An overwhelmingly negative opinion of terror chief bin Laden and more than half, 57%, disapproving of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. > > • Three-fourths say they think the U.S. plans to keep military bases in Iraq permanently. Now, John, would you care to tell us what facts you considered in leading to your “not thinking so” instead? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/48 "2006-11-20T01:13:24Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I was referring to the aftermath . . . both short-term and long-term. If we pull out, the government **will** fall. In the short term that will shed a lot of blood, as in Vietnam. In the long term (we’re talking at least a decade) it might be the best thing that ever happened to Iraq, as the Communist victory was, on that time-scale, the best thing that ever happened to Vietnam. [/QUOTE] Not at all like Vietnam, in either the short-term or the long-term. In Vietnam there were, certainly, some executions, some political re-educations, some repressions after the North won the war, but there was never the potential for genocidal civil war that exists in Iraq. The only possible way I see to avert that potential is to leave a Saddam redux (from whatever faction) in charge when we leave. I’m not even sure that would be good enough - we have broken everything. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/49 "2006-11-20T01:13:54Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] The problem is that in the paradigm of military force, we operate under the tacit assumption of facing an indentifiable, organized opponent on a battlefield. Much of the reason that we will never “win” in Iraq is that there is no single force to defeat in combat. Nobody on the “Them” side is wearing uniforms or answering to a single would-be government, and there’s no decisive move to end the war. The only win–as far as ending violent conflict between warring factions–is to separate and disarm the combatants in a massive (and literal) police action; something our troops are neither trained, equipped, or supported to do. This isn’t like WWII, with an obvious opposing force; it’s not even like Gulf War I, with a clear objective (push the Iraqis out of Kuwait and obtain capitulation from Hussain). This is like trying to rid New York City of crime after the Moses Urban Planning fiasco. [/quote] But you wouldn’t say that we can’t define who the criminals are. So, “who is the enemy” is still easily answerable, even if the enemy is not easily defeatable. And our goal needn’t even be that we defeat “the enemy”, but that the Iraq government can sustain itself without our help. I’m not saying that will be easy to achieve, but it is possible. > [@](#): > > The honest and intelligent thing to do would have been to admit up front that this would be a long term occupation in adverse circumstances, and plan accordingly (i.e. work to gain approval from and compromise by various factions). We didn’t, and now basically anybody could be the enemy. This is why Bush The Elder made the smart move in leaving Hussain in power, however dubious his motives and post-war pledges of support to ethnic Kurds were. The intelligent thing to do would have been to no invade in the first place. But I certainly agree that if we were to invade, we should have planned for the need to fight a long and protracted insurgency-- that could easily have been foreseen. > [@ElisL1ves](#): > > Just to indulge that petulant demand for a cite for what should be widely known by those who follow the news:Sep 27 '06 > > Now, John, would you care to tell us what facts you considered in leading to your “not thinking so” instead? No, that doesn’t support your assertion. I don’t consider anyone to be “the enemy” just because they say that they approve of attacks on US troops, and I don’t see how you could have gotten that from my definition: “those who are taking up arms against the legitimate government of Iraq and those who are actively assisting them.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/50 "2006-11-20T01:35:07Z")
Is any government “legitimate” if it actively oppresses a minority of its citizens? Does that minority have a legitimate right to resist? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/51 "2006-11-20T01:46:53Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Is any government “legitimate” if it actively oppresses a minority of its citizens? [/quote] Depends. “Legitimate” means lawful or according to established rules. If the government has been established lawfully and is recognized internationally, then I’d say it’s legitimate even if it certain of its policies may not be. Besides, if what you said were true, then there would be few, if any, “legitimate” governments in the world. > [@](#): > > Does that minority have a legitimate right to resist? Sure. Just ask Gandhi or MLK-- they could even tell you what the “legitimate” tactics are. When I see the insurgents staging sit-ins, I’ll stop calling them “the enemy”. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/52 "2006-11-20T01:58:38Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Depends. “Legitimate” means lawful or according to established rules. If the government has been established lawfully and is recognized internationally, then I’d say it’s legitimate even if it certain of its policies may not be. Besides, if what you said were true, then there would be few, if any, “legitimate” governments in the world. [/QUOTE] How many countries recognize the Iraqi government as the legitimate government? (Not directed directly at you, **John**. Some googling has produced no results.) Certainly it is the de facto government, but, as an occupied country, can any government there be said to be de jure? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/53 "2006-11-20T02:37:59Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I don’t consider anyone to be “the enemy” just because they say that they approve of attacks on US troops, and I don’t see how you could have gotten that from my definition: “those who are taking up arms against the legitimate government of Iraq and those who are actively assisting them.” [/QUOTE] So you draw your firm, sharp line between actively assisting and merely passively supporting, then? Sheesh. :rolleyes: **Frank** , the Thieu, er, Maliki crew isn’t even “certainly the de facto government” outside the Green Zone. The de facto government in Iraq apparently depends on what neighborhood you’re in. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/54 "2006-11-20T02:43:05Z")
[QUOTE=What the … !!!] No… McCain seems to think we can do it. If you want to have a debate about the draft as Rangel called for today, that’s fine. [/QUOTE] It would be nice if McCain pointed out where these extra troops are coming from. The generals don’t seem to know, which is one thing I believe them about. More likely that when McCain runs for president he can say, “No one listened to my solution. Iraq isn’t my fault!” I think Frank Rich made that point today. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/55 "2006-11-20T02:46:53Z")
By the way, even [Hnry Kissinger](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061120/ap_on_re_mi_ea/britain_iraq_kissinger) has given up on a military solution. John - do you consider the al Sadr militia part of the government or not? Kind of hard to crack down on forces allied with part of the government. The government has really met the enemy, and they are us. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/56 "2006-11-20T02:47:54Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] So you draw your firm, sharp line between actively assisting and merely passively supporting, then? [/QUOTE] Yes. Why not? And you don’t even know if those people in the survey are passively supporting the attacks. They just said they approve of them. Passively supporting would mean you were, for example, holding knowledge about the insurgents, but not telling the authorities. And, the US forces are not the government of Iraq. Many Shiites might want the US troops out, but they’re not taking up arms against the government. Same thing with the Kurds. **Frank** : Why isn’t it the _de jure_ government? There were openly free elections with international monitors in which high turnout was had throughout the country. How much more _de jure_ do you want? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/57 "2006-11-20T02:59:56Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Yes. Why not? [/quote] Because it’s beyond bizarre and into the range of merely silly. The people who aren’t, under your definition, “the enemy” are then the people we’re protecting from the people they support. What the hell are we doing there, then? > [@](#): > > And you don’t even know if those people in the survey are passively supporting the attacks. They just said they approve of them. Do yourself a favor. Step back and take a deep breath for just a moment. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/58 "2006-11-20T03:01:16Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] **Frank** : Why isn’t it the _de jure_ government? There were openly free elections with international monitors in which high turnout was had throughout the country. How much more _de jure_ do you want? [/QUOTE] And I could be convinced of that, partly by seeing how many countries recognize the government of occupied Iraq as legitimate, and, frankly, by seeing the Iraqis recognize the government of their country as legitimate. I see few signs of either the former or the latter. Can you direct me to a site on the election monitors? I’d be interested to see how many were not from the U.S. or the U.K. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/59 "2006-11-20T03:14:22Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] It would be nice if McCain pointed out where these extra troops are coming from. The generals don’t seem to know, which is one thing I believe them about. [/quote] The US doesn’t have 20,000 troops somewhere? We might have to re-prioritize some of the things we’re doing, but we’ve got more troops than that sitting in Europe helping them defend themselves from the Soviet Union. > [@](#): > > More likely that when McCain runs for president he can say, “No one listened to my solution. Iraq isn’t my fault!” I think Frank Rich made that point today. Not likely at all. McCain’s been calling for more troops for a long time. As for the Sadr militia, no I don’t consider them part of the Iraqi government, and Sadr himself is not part of the goverment. Nor does the Iraqi goverment consider that militia to be part of itself: > [@](#): > > [Battle rages in Shia Iraqi town](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4801705.stm) > > Our Baghdad correspondent says tensions have been high in the area since fierce fighting in August between the Mehdi Army and Iraqi government forces and US troops. It’s not even clear that it is one group: > [@](#): > > Recent reports have suggested that the militia is not cohesive and that more radical elements may have split off, says our correspondent. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/60 "2006-11-20T03:18:19Z")
**Frank** , [the UN recognizes it](http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=18556&Cr=Iraq&Cr1). Good enough? [There were no international election monitors in Iraq itself - they were all in Jordan.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4033263.stm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038.md?page=4)