# Iraq War pull-out with Victory **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038 "2006-11-19T16:18:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/61 "2006-11-20T03:32:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Can you direct me to a site on the election monitors? I’d be interested to see how many were not from the U.S. or the U.K. [U.N.-led team finds Iraq election credible](http://www.sptimes.com/2005/12/29/news_pf/Worldandnation/UN_led_team_finds_Ira.shtml). This was widely reported on and discussed on this MB. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/62 "2006-11-20T03:35:38Z")
[QUOTE=What the … !!!] Why don’t we announce a pull-out in the next 6-8 months (no drop dead date…gotta leave them guessing a little)? Then we make it clear to the Iraqi government that we are going fight a war against the bad guys **our way** between now and then…are you with us or against us? Then we do it. If we need 20,000 more troops like McCain say’s I’m cool with that. Obviously we can’t get them all and obviously there will be crying and gnashing of teeth but that’s happenning now and will continue for as long as we are there. Then we can rest up and be prepared to go into the next hell hole that will inevitably arise. [/QUOTE] Any pull out is a victory if military responsibility is given to the ISF, who then keep the current Iraqi government functioning. If that doesn’t happen then a pull out’s results will have to be judged as either mixed or defeat. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/63 "2006-11-20T03:42:48Z")
Here’s a [list of countries](http://www.iraqmofa.net/english/dim/iraqm.aspx) with Iraqi ambassadors. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/64 "2006-11-20T03:51:22Z")
**ElvisL1ves** and **John Mace** , both of your cites are interesting. In different ways. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/65 "2006-11-20T03:58:06Z")
Especially that last one! Boy, is my face red! There I was, thinking that Iraq didn’t have a lot of ambassadors, and it turns out they got a whole \*bunch \* of 'em! Needless to say, it may take a while to digest this stunning revelation, it may demand a complete reconfiguration of my opinions in this matter. But in the meantime, I think I’ll stick with my “default” position that the War in Iraq is a slithering clusterfuck and the sooner our people are out, the better. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/66 "2006-11-20T04:03:43Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Especially that last one! Boy, is my face red! There I was, thinking that Iraq didn’t have a lot of ambassadors, and it turns out they got a whole \*bunch \* of 'em! Needless to say, it may take a while to digest this stunning revelation, it may demand a complete reconfiguration of my opinions in this matter. [/QUOTE] \*\*Frank \*\*asked my how many countires recognized the Iraqi government, and I gave him a cite that answers that question. Got a problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/67 "2006-11-20T04:20:26Z")
My mistake. Thought you might be implying some significance. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/68 "2006-11-20T04:27:02Z")
A [failed state](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state) with recognized ambassadors is still a failed state. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/69 "2006-11-20T04:50:23Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Because it’s beyond bizarre and into the range of merely silly. The people who aren’t, under your definition, “the enemy” are then the people we’re protecting from the people they support. What the hell are we doing there, then? [/quote] That’s a completely separate question from “who is the enemy”. If we were gone tomorrow, there would still be people who would be taking up arms against the legitimate government of Iraq. That’s who I call “the enemy” today and that’s who I’d call “the enemy” tomorrow. But as long as we’re there, we have to defend ourselves against those who want to attack us, too. Most Iraqis may approve of attacks against US forces in Iraq, but that doesn’t mean the support similar attacks against their own government. In fact, if you had actually read the [poll the cited earlier](http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/165.php?nid=&id=&pnt=165&lb=brme), you’d know that: > [@](#): > > Support for other types of attacks is sharply lower. An overwhelming 93% oppose attacks on Iraqi government security forces (66% strongly). This is true of all ethnic groups, including 76% of Sunnis, 97% of Shia and 99% of Kurds. Thus, it appears that support for attacks on US-led forces is truly aimed at US-led forces, not an indirect attempt to undermine the new Iraqi government. > > Support for attacks on Iraqi civilians is nearly nonexistent. Only 1% approve, while 95% disapprove strongly. My definition works just fine, thank-you. And I think this addressed the other part of **Frank** ’s question, btw. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Do yourself a favor. Step back and take a deep breath for just a moment. You’re funny, **Elvis**! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/70 "2006-11-20T04:58:20Z")
> [@](#): > > …Asked whether “the US government plans to have permanent military bases in Iraq or to remove all its military forces once Iraq is stabilized,” 80% overall assume that the US plans to remain permanently, including 79% of Shia, 92% of Sunnis and 67% of Kurds. Only small minorities believe that the US plans “to remove all its military forces once Iraq is stabilized” (overall 18%, Shia 21%, Sunni 7%, Kurds 28%)… Same poll. Apparently, they haven’t a lot of faith in our word. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/71 "2006-11-20T05:06:34Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Same poll. Apparently, they haven’t a lot of faith in our word. [/QUOTE] Are they right or wrong? Surely the U.S. doesn’t intend to maintain a long-term base presence there as it did in postwar Germany and Japan?! Because that would be, like, totally fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/72 "2006-11-20T05:10:24Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Are they right or wrong? Surely the U.S. doesn’t intend to maintain a long-term base presence there as it did in postwar Germany and Japan?! Because that would be, like, totally fucking stupid. [/QUOTE] Bush wants to, but Congress has passed legislation withholinding funds for him to do so. [Link](http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/09/29/congress_restricts_bush_on_iraq_spending/). ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/73 "2006-11-20T05:13:51Z")
Sticking, perhaps with futility, to the OP’s premise: [Quote=What the…!!!] In some circumstances it might be warranted. I’m no military strategist but you have to fight them where they are. [/Quote] So, we may have to destroy some villages in order to save them, right? I’m no military strategist either, but where they are is Iraq, and we are surely fighting them there. The problems, however, are multiple. From my limited understanding of the conflict, very little of it consists of insurgents going toe-to-toe with American troops. Apparently, the majority of actions against US troops tend to be through the use of remotely-detonated bombs or other standoff attacks. Most of the rest of the insurgency consists of individual murders of perceived political opponents, suicide bombings in public places and mass kidnappings of persons deemed supporters of the government, all, by definition away from the immediate presence of US forces. By definition, we don’t know exactly where they are at any given moment, and we simply do not have enough ground troops available to be everywhere at once. As cited earlier in this thread, a September poll showed that a majority of Iraqis were in favor of resistance against the Americans. Why would you say this is so? If we adopt tactics of indiscriminate destruction, even in a limited fashion, do you think Iraqi support for the US occupation will increase? According to your OP, the Iraqi government whose installation we have facilitated apparently does not want us to use indiscriminate tactics in fighting the insurgency, despite having much to lose if we do not fight on their behalf. Assuming this is true (and I’d to hear someone in the US military agree that this is true), why, would you say, are they taking such a self-defeating position? The inability of our troops to deal decisively with the Iraqi insurgency is, in my view, inherent in our foolish choice to have launched this conflict in the first place. The lumps we are taking there, we are taking mainly because we picked a fight we had no real need to, not because of some nuance of tactics or another, and at this point the ultimate outcome (partition of Iraq, after a fairly nasty civil conflict) seems likely regardless of whether we pull out now or later, or whether we continue to try and limit civilian casualties or go all My Lai on their asses. Sorry for a lack of sunny optimism, but at this point I’m in favor of simply doing the least harm until the politicos decide we can depart with the least loss of face. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/74 "2006-11-20T05:35:06Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] Nah, the blame-America-first crowd is in charge on Capitol Hill, remember? [/QUOTE] Not until January. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/75 "2006-11-20T07:19:21Z")
> [@](#): > > **athelas** : Nah, the blame-America-first crowd is in charge on Capitol Hill, remember? What? The British have invaded _again_? ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/76 "2006-11-20T12:15:03Z")
[QUOTE=What the … !!!] I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t even suggest that our military is being brutal. [/QUOTE] It is a self-blindered fantasy to think that what we ask the men and women of our military to do is not “brutal”. Certainly there are humanitarian missions being carried out, but the first role of the military is to kill and destroy, that is, be brutal. Also, if you support the war, and its added troops, and are a male between the ages of 18 and 42, that would qualify you as a chicken hawk. I opened a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=387088) about this in the Pit a while back and maybe I was premature. But I think now, with more troops being called for, the epithet is more apt. Our military is simply too taxed and stretched to respond as they are needed to win this war. The fact is if we are to send more troops, we will need, wait for it…here it comes…MORE TROOPS! I know you probably have a yellow ribbon sticker on your car, but it is time for able bodied men to REALLY “suport the troops”. Your hour has arrived. Don’t let your destiny pass you by. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/77 "2006-11-20T12:18:32Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] What? The British have invaded _again_? [/QUOTE] Haha, of course not! I think athelas is just making a little joke. They’re onto us. Retreat to Canada, guys, and we’ll try again next year. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/78 "2006-11-20T23:55:40Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] **ElvisL1ves** and **John Mace** , both of your cites are interesting. In different ways. [/QUOTE] Your observation is interesting, and probably in different ways. Care to elaborate for us? > [@John Mace](#): > > That’s a completely separate question from “who is the enemy” Until you can provide something more substantive and realistic, not based on simple argumentativeness, it’ll do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/79 "2006-11-21T00:22:56Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Until you can provide something more substantive and realistic, not based on simple argumentativeness, it’ll do. [/QUOTE] You’re funny, **Elvis**! ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038/80 "2006-11-21T00:24:13Z")
[After nearly a quarter-century of severed ties, Iraq said Monday it will resume diplomatic relations with neighboring Syria](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2006-11-20-iraq-syria_x.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-war-pull-out-with-victory/381038.md?page=5)