# Iraq: Why did We get it wrong? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 27, 2006, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281 "2006-07-27T16:31:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2006, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/61 "2006-07-29T02:32:38Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > Why didn´t the US use Afghanistan as a sample of how good democracy can be in the ME? > I, mean, it was already invaded and stuff, if the goal of the US would be to plant a shining beacon of democracy smack in the middle of the ME why start a new war for that? Very good question. One, I have to admit, that’s had me stumped since big talk started about going into Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2006, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/62 "2006-07-29T03:23:37Z")
Because Afghanistan was a total success! That’s why a substantial diversion of materiale was possible, because everything was utterly peachy. We established a functional Green Zone in Kabul, with an entirely decent fellow as mayor of Kabul, with a mandate that extends as much as 10 km. on any given day. The agricultural efforts that are the mainstay of the Afghan economy are thriving, bumper crops are anticipated with glee. Many former bandits and warlords have been rehabilitated and found new careers as civil servants, ministers, and the like. Here’s a picture of a school!.. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2006, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/63 "2006-07-29T04:03:44Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Very good question. One, I have to admit, that’s had me stumped since big talk started about going into Iraq. > [@](#): > > Because Afghanistan was a total success! That’s why a substantial diversion of materiale was possible, because everything was utterly peachy. > > We established a functional Green Zone in Kabul, with an entirely decent fellow as mayor of Kabul, with a mandate that extends as much as 10 km. on any given day. The agricultural efforts that are the mainstay of the Afghan economy are thriving, bumper crops are anticipated with glee. Many former bandits and warlords have been rehabilitated and found new careers as civil servants, ministers, and the like. Here’s a picture of a school!.. Because Afghanistan is not in the Middle East! It’s in Central Asia! And to think that after 5 years compared to the 30-odd years that you’d dismantle all the warlords tribal militias and get rid of the Taliban whilst also reconstructing the country and then training its army and the drug farms viable or even sensible prediction. That conflict is very much a multi generational affair, whether the Coalition UN mandated presence (I cannot stress UN mandated enough, since some of these folks are considering even Afghanistan a lost cause, even though hundreds of thousands of women have gone into education and 3 million refugees returned back to Afghanistan) will make a success of it is too early to tell. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/64 "2006-07-29T04:05:04Z")
going after the drug farms\* ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/65 "2006-07-29T19:38:02Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > going after the drug farms\* What would you propose to do about those? At present, opium farming seems to be the biggest and most profitable economic activity Afghanistan has got. You can’t just go in and burn the fields without offering something to replace them. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/66 "2006-07-29T20:25:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What would you propose to do about those? At present, opium farming seems to be the biggest and most profitable economic activity Afghanistan has got. You can’t just go in and burn the fields without offering something to replace them. Make it legal. By doing this, trade of the drug can be restricted. Or you can provide the farmers/villages with infrastructure which can provide a viable alternative. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/67 "2006-07-29T20:49:39Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Make it legal. By doing this, trade of the drug can be restricted. Legalizing opium **in Afghanistan** would not solve the problem – the crop is grown for **export,** mainly to countries where it is **not** legal, which accounts for the fat margin of profit. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Or you can provide the farmers/villages with infrastructure which can provide a viable alternative. Excellent idea – but expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/68 "2006-07-30T20:47:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Legalizing opium in Afghanistan would not solve the problem – the crop is grown for export, mainly to countries where it is not legal, which accounts for the fat margin of profit. Which is why alternative infrastructure investment is needed. They only grow it because it’s the only business which brings in large amounts of money. > [@](#): > > Excellent idea – but expensive. Well considering it’s the only alternative, and 13 billion has been pledged to the Afghan Government, it seems the only option. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/69 "2006-07-30T21:14:14Z")
Afghanistan doesn’t have any oil. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/70 "2006-07-30T22:30:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Excellent idea – but expensive. Not nearly as expensive as wars. Marshall and Truman, and the Congress of the day, recognized that leaving Germany and most of Europe in shambles after WWII would only lead to a lot of grief down the line. Hence, The Marshall Plan. Even the Soviet Union was invited in but Stalin’s paranoia got in the way. And this doesn’t mean that I now buy the argument that “we established democracy in Germany so why not Iraq.” It simply does not follow that success in doing procedure A with country B means that the same thing will happen with country C. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2006, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/71 "2006-07-30T22:31:37Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Germany and Italy already had democracy before WW2. This had come about after centuries of gradually combining city-states and independent provinces, with common religion and language. > Certainly the system had been abused, but it had existed. People understood their voting rights. > There is not a parallel with the artificially created Middle East states, which had been dictatorships all their lives. Germany and France had both had the crap blown out of them during 5 years of heavy warfare. I imagine that in 5 years’ time, were the Russians / Chinese\* to enter Iraq and 1. throw the yanks out 2. try democracy again the Iraqi people may well be much more receptive. The US involvement in Iraq / Afhanistan is (IMO) part of a long-term strategoc goal to ensure a stable world ecomony in America’s favour. The real worry for the US is Inda, Pakistan and China - all of whom will challenge the US economically in the next 20-30 yrs. The US now have troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, perfect for exterting control should either I, P or C flex their muscles. \*hypothetically, not like it’s really gonna happen ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/72 "2006-07-31T01:01:53Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > Afghanistan doesn’t have any oil. But it is well positioned for a [natural gas pipeline](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline) from Turkmenistan to the Indian Ocean. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/73 "2006-07-31T03:50:25Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **Askance** > > And when your commander-in-chief indicates humiliation and torture is acceptable, you can hardly be blamed for taking him at his word. > > Not that I’m defending _that_ policy, but the President’s position hardly condones wanton rape and murder of civilian non-combatants. If you think it does, please provide me the relevant quotes that led you to that conclusion, and I’ll consider revising my position. It didn’t condone it but, until made public it didn’t condemn it either. There was definitely a “whatever it takes” mentality to the whole enterprise, fed by the explicit American Exceptionalist beliefs this administration has adhered to from the start. Organisational culture filters down from the top. If the rules do not apply to Them Up Top, they don’t apply to Us Down Here either. Explicitly abnegating the Geneva Convention where convenient, setting up Camp X-ray so as to deliberately be outside your own and international jurisdiction, and extensive use of rendition to outsource your torture, all send the same message to the troops. I guarantee that each and every one of those Abu Graib people thought they were doing what their ultimate bosses wanted. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/74 "2006-07-31T04:19:33Z")
> [@e-logic](#): > > The US involvement in Iraq / Afhanistan is (IMO) part of a long-term strategoc goal to ensure a stable world ecomony in America’s favour. Very ill-considered, then. > [@e-logic](#): > > The real worry for the US is Inda, Pakistan and China - all of whom will challenge the US economically in the next 20-30 yrs. The US now have troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, perfect for exterting control should either I, P or C flex their muscles. Only if the U.S. **still** has U.S. troops there 20-30 years from now. They might be planning for that but I don’t think it’s gonna happen. We will live to see our “enduring bases” in Iraq either handed over to an Iraqi government, or overrun by Iraqi insurgents. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/75 "2006-07-31T11:19:41Z")
The biggest mistake Bush made was not listening to his father and why he didn’t go into Baghdad in the Gulf war, he was warned that was is going on now would happen. But Wolfawitz,Chaney, and Rumpsfeld wanted to go into Baghdad then, and didn’t approve of the older Bush’s not going, so they use Dubya as a puppet, and used the war on terror as an excuse, instead of concetrating on getting Afghanistan and Bib Laden’s group taken care of first. There would have been plenty of time to take care of Iraq should it have become a problem and the rest of the world would more likely have helped; as it sees the US now they think of us as a bully and rather than using us as a hope for a better life see us as the bully on the block imposing it’s ideas on them. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/76 "2006-07-31T13:35:34Z")
> [@](#): > > We will live to see our “enduring bases” in Iraq either handed over to an Iraqi government, or overrun by Iraqi insurgents. Sorry but I see the premise of Iraqi insurgents overrunning ‘Enduring bases’ quite simply laughable. > [@](#): > > Only if the U.S. still has U.S. troops there 20-30 years from now. They might be planning for that but I don’t think it’s gonna happen. Well I do, they don’t have to be in the amount that they have now, and they don’t have to be on active duty. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/77 "2006-07-31T13:39:32Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Sorry but I see the premise of Iraqi insurgents overrunning ‘Enduring bases’ quite simply laughable. Remember the Saigon Embassy? And don’t forget, by that time the insurgents might be backed up by a new Iraqi government – or by the Iranians. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Well I do, they don’t have to be in the amount that they have now, and they don’t have to be on active duty. Of course they have to be on active duty. Every soldier at every U.S. base in Western Europe or Japan or anywhere in the world is on active duty. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/78 "2006-07-31T14:54:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Remember the Saigon Embassy? And don’t forget, by that time the insurgents might be backed up by a new Iraqi government – or by the Iranians. Or the “insurgents” might _be_ the Iraqi government by then. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/79 "2006-07-31T15:13:41Z")
…maybe _everything is going according to plan._ WAR IS PEACE. FREEDOM IS SLAVERY. IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281/80 "2006-07-31T21:43:02Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > It didn’t condone it but, until made public it didn’t condemn it either. There was definitely a “whatever it takes” mentality to the whole enterprise, fed by the explicit American Exceptionalist beliefs this administration has adhered to from the start. > > Organisational culture filters down from the top. If the rules do not apply to Them Up Top, they don’t apply to Us Down Here either. Explicitly abnegating the Geneva Convention where convenient, setting up Camp X-ray so as to deliberately be outside your own and international jurisdiction, and extensive use of rendition to outsource your torture, all send the same message to the troops. I guarantee that each and every one of those Abu Graib people thought they were doing what their ultimate bosses wanted. I would be hard pressed to argue against anything you’ve said, but I have a few questions: how does this relate to straight up criminality of rape/homicide? Are you trying to say that the perpetrators thought they were conducting ad hoc field interrogation? Or somehow thought the higher-up’s nudge-nudge-wing-wink attitude towards “interrogation techniques” gave them carte blanche to act like the Mongol hordes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraq-why-did-we-get-it-wrong/366281.md?page=5)